Is hiphop a form of post-punk?

[Tim F]

"Is post-punk a form of druidic chanting? Anyone?"

Seriously though, the problem isn't that saying "hip hop is post-punk" is rockist or even that it's wrong, it's that it's such a boring way to think about the musics in question - the same kind of boringness that leads that excrutiating Chuck Klosterman article on Gnarls Barkley in the New York Times (oh my god! is Dangermouse an auteur like Woody Allen and Brian Eno?)

Sometimes I suspect that the renewed veneration of post-punk that has been going on for the past few years is potentially a bad thing for music criticism. Yes, a fair amount of it was some of the best music ever, but there's now this really safe consensus that this was obviously so, and that the characteristics that defined post-punk are the way, the truth and the light for all good music. This need to have a heirarchy with post-punk at the top (however justified it may be) almost inevitably starts to close down our potential to think interestingly about music - <i>including</i> post-punk.

We shouldn't restrict ourselves to just thinking of genres "in their own terms", but if we're going to think about the relationships b/w genres we should try to do so in a way that is gonna generate some new thought, rather than simply calcifying our existing orthodoxy.

Asking "is hip hop a form of cowpunk" would be more productive, really.

 

[bassnation]

simply calcifying our existing orthodoxy

i love this phrase. i'm going to attempt to work it into every conversation i have at work today, even if its entirely inappropriate.

 

[stelfox]

hiphop had been around for a good few years before planet rock came out, the kraftwerk influence on hiphop was just a flash in the pan, and does reggae really have much of an influence over hiphop? i think if it did it would be more apparent, there'd be more reggae samples used, more lyrical references etc, i think that rapping owes more to gil scott heron, the watts prophets and lightning rod than to reggae toasters. if you listen to early hiphop it takes way more from disco than it does from kraftwerk or reggae.

Reggae's influence on hip hip is absolutely vital and at its very core. Sure, they're very different now and there is a case for saying that hip-hop and R&B influence reggae more than it influences hip-hop now, but at the outset, hip-hop wouldn't simply wouldn't exist without soundsystem culture.
Kool Herc's dad ran a sound, that's where he learnt his trade and pushed it in a new direction, most hip-hop nights still play reggae and dancehall and a thing I went to recently in San Francisco with Herc, Bam and Jazzy Jeff was at least 40 per cent reggae all evening. Jeff Chang writes very interestingly, sensibly and incisively on this in Can't Stop, Won't Stop.
As for the punk connection, it's tenuous. They were parallel cultures that crossed over occasionally at places like Danceteria in Manhattan, but this was really a hipster thing, like Shoreditch clubs playing grime alongside indie bands and that stupid grindie cd – i.e. not exactly real.

Lemme just say yr a pack of deluded elsitist Nazi faggots that can't accept the truth. Hiphop WAS a form of post-punk in many cases tho' not absolutely. It minimalised funk and disco and enabled the average joe to 'get it up' whether via graffitti or simple raps. Beside none of you fuckers even went to the early hiphop shows, most of you weren't even born, and probably didn't live in New York - myself included. But the lyrics DEFINTELY ported the punk or post-punk ideas of self-improvement and aggrisement. The brags on the early traxx, all the way to the hardcore leftist sentiment to shit like PE or BDP. Sonically It melded Kraftwerk, reggae and funk, even that curse word you bums call ROCK and took it to another level, in fact so far that IT HAS IN FACT SUPERCEDED ROCK AND IS THE NEW ROCK. Rock today is a joke, HIPHOP is the king, in fact hiphop acts don't even need to tour coz they sell so much. It's ROCK for there here and now whether you like it or not, even if the Kayne West album gets totally fucken boring after 4 listens. I didn't vote, the record buying pubic did! But if you want to shoot yrself in the face, I will be more than happy to load the weapon and help you pull the trigger, coz TIMEZONE 'World DESTRUCTION' is still a fucken happening and INFINTELY POLITICALLY RELEVANT jam! GET FUCKED and go listen to a fucking boring Burial rekkid you simps!!!

Jesus, did someone miss their Ritalin hit today or something?

 

[Edward]

Lemme just say yr a pack of deluded elsitist Nazi faggots that can't accept the truth.

etc
etc

what an unpleasant attitude. makes me want to not come here.

 

[DavidD]

Christianity: a form of post punk?! You decide!

 

[petergunn]

. They were parallel cultures that crossed over occasionally at places like Danceteria in Manhattan, but this was really a hipster thing, like Shoreditch clubs playing grime alongside indie bands and that stupid grindie cd – i.e. not exactly real.

and they led bronx hip hop peeps to stop dressing like this:

and to start dressing like this:

 

[mms]

and they led bronx hip hop peeps to stop dressing like this:

and to start dressing like this:

not so sure about that.. it's a bitof a dig n delve innit, tooing and throwing between euro and the us, the past and the future demands and luxuries, rights and lefts this electronic/ hip hop business, the question of who dressed up first, trying to set a logical timeline and a series of results etc just misses the point big time.
all a bit 'sir nose' that kinda bidnizz.

 

[mistersloane]

Given that hiphop's been around since 1972 ( or 73 ) I think the ontology of the question is incorrect, and if you have to go there, posit the question 'Is post-punk a form of hiphop'.
My opinion, in answer to either question, is a resounding no.

 

[big satan]

Reggae's influence on hip hip is absolutely vital and at its very core. Sure, they're very different now and there is a case for saying that hip-hop and R&B influence reggae more than it influences hip-hop now, but at the outset, hip-hop wouldn't simply wouldn't exist without soundsystem culture.
Kool Herc's dad ran a sound, that's where he learnt his trade and pushed it in a new direction, most hip-hop nights still play reggae and dancehall and a thing I went to recently in San Francisco with Herc, Bam and Jazzy Jeff was at least 40 per cent reggae all evening. Jeff Chang writes very interestingly, sensibly and incisively on this in Can't Stop, Won't Stop.

cheers, all i'd ever been able to read out about this before was that kool herc was jamaican and the implication was always that therefore hiphop must be influenced by reggae, but never going into it in any depth. i'll check out that chang book.

 

[originaldrum]

most of you weren't even born, !

half the dudes round here are like 40 or something man,

 

[SIZZLE]

Buick, I'm sorry, combining Nazi and Faggots in one insult just reveals what an ignorant fuckface you are. I prefer to not insult people on public boards but in this case it is unavoidable. Shhhhut Yuh Muh DICKHEAD!

And thank you stelfox. If you want to start asking 'is hiphop a sub branch of anything else?' In my opinion the only answer you could credibly assert is Reggae. Talking over stripped down rhythm records was invented in Jamaica and transplanted to the Bronx by Kool Herc, a direct and documented link. Outside of World Destruction and a few other Bambataa lead integration moves the punk and hiphop scenes were largely seperate and if anything it was the punks coming to hiphop jams, not the other way around. You notice that World Destruction is a hiphop record and not a punk record, even though it features a punk vocalist.

And I agree, I think the whole tendency to say hiphop is a form of reggae, grime is form of hiphop, x is a form of y, is basically boring. Everything evolves out of something else but at a certain point diverges and becomes it's own thing with it's own name, trying to squeeze it back into whatever genre's it may or may not have come from strikes me as a big waste of time. If you ask me it's much more interesting to look at differences than similarities in these situations.

And hold tight poison dart who knows his history, good to have you around when these idiot threads come up.

 

[Slothrop]

And I agree, I think the whole tendency to say hiphop is a form of reggae, grime is form of hiphop, x is a form of y, is basically boring. Everything evolves out of something else but at a certain point diverges and becomes it's own thing with it's own name, trying to squeeze it back into whatever genre's it may or may not have come from strikes me as a big waste of time.

Agree, although it's still not as stupid as those "did [white music / musician] influence [black music / musician]" arguments that tend to polarise into "white people actually invented everything" and "black people only ever listen to proper black music so there's no way that that could have been an influence."

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Buick, I'm sorry, combining Nazi and Faggots in one insult just reveals what an ignorant fuckface you are. I prefer to not insult people on public boards but in this case it is unavoidable. Shhhhut Yuh Muh DICKHEAD!

And thank you stelfox. If you want to start asking 'is hiphop a sub branch of anything else?' In my opinion the only answer you could credibly assert is Reggae. Talking over stripped down rhythm records was invented in Jamaica and transplanted to the Bronx by Kool Herc, a direct and documented link. Outside of World Destruction and a few other Bambataa lead integration moves the punk and hiphop scenes were largely seperate and if anything it was the punks coming to hiphop jams, not the other way around. You notice that World Destruction is a hiphop record and not a punk record, even though it features a punk vocalist.

And I agree, I think the whole tendency to say hiphop is a form of reggae, grime is form of hiphop, x is a form of y, is basically boring. Everything evolves out of something else but at a certain point diverges and becomes it's own thing with it's own name, trying to squeeze it back into whatever genre's it may or may not have come from strikes me as a big waste of time. If you ask me it's much more interesting to look at differences than similarities in these situations.

And hold tight poison dart who knows his history, good to have you around when these idiot threads come up.

No problem. This is why I keep coming back here. I LEARN way more than I have the opportunity to prove I'm not JUST some bastard who thinks that East Coast hip hop is better than everything except for the discoveries of fire, electricity, iron, stone and bronze. LOL. One.

 

[Buick6]

Yeah but you shmeckeckies still get it wrong. NO URBAN HIPSTERS LISTEND TO EARLY HIPHOP REGGAE POST_FUNK OR WHATEVER IN 1972! THEY DIDN'T CATCH ON TO IT UNTIL '79 Or WHENEVER BLONDIE DID RAPTURE AND GRANDMASTER FLASH BECAME BIG!! THEY JUST HAD THE WHOLE DISCO VS PUNK SHIT, AND HIPHOP BLEW ALL THAT WIDE OPEN FOREVER!

Sheesh, for such a smart/educated/informed and well debated lot, you guys live up to my .sig in spades!

 

[petergunn]

NO URBAN HIPSTERS LISTEND TO EARLY HIPHOP REGGAE POST_FUNK OR WHATEVER IN 1972! THEY DIDN'T CATCH ON TO IT UNTIL '79 Or WHENEVER BLONDIE DID RAPTURE AND GRANDMASTER FLASH BECAME BIG!! THEY JUST HAD THE WHOLE DISCO VS PUNK SHIT, AND HIPHOP BLEW ALL THAT WIDE OPEN FOREVER!

so post-punk is a form of hip hop? oh, i'm so confused....

 

[Edward]

Buick 6 you have just totally reversed what you were saying before whilst continuing to insult everyone.

Now you are saying hip hop came before post punk and that post punk was influenced by hip hop.

Get your mind right mate.

 

[polystyle]

Whoa whoa whoa Buick

I dunno what was up in '72 per see ,
but I got here in spring '78 hip hop was already happening in the Bronx
J M Basquiat was living in a box in Tompkins Sq Park at the time , hoping to emulate Mile's artwork
(which he did)
and us 'hipsters' (yea, someone had to make it happen) were making scene @ The Mudd Club on White St. far downtown.
My man Michael Holman ( JM Basquiat's's Gray cohort) brought Afrika B down to DJ at the Mudd soon enough . could find the exact date in my old diaries.
Never heard anyone play James Brown at The Mudd before that night .
I was there , where you were man ? it was a great scene , never to be repeated .
Michael then had his nights @ The Negril on Second Avenue with Phase Two coming down ,
got The Rammellzee to come over from Far Rock and the hiphoppers were coming down and mixing
it up with our scene downtown , lots of ingredients were swapped .

Blondie ? get outta here ! so after the fact , now they were 'hipsters' in the negative way that gets bandied these days , wagon chasers and jumpers
Celluloid started doing their 12" series around this time with Phase Two's "The Roxy" , "Change The Beat" , etc.
Danceteria 1 was during that time , but the one most remember Danceteria 2 was afterwards,
a good place to snog Madonna as they has a nice rooftop and it was dark up there ,
but that was not where the hiphop and post punk first mixed .
Of course, it was where Mark Kamins first mixed Madonna .

Lady Blue (Bless her ' she's an old friend and still in the biz booking thoese DJ's around the world) was Malcolm'a antennae /front on the scene ,
she came in and swooped up the Negril rappers & DJ's - and brought them over to The Roxy and hopped that scene - "Buffalo Gals" afterwards , Malcolm the raider .

Different DIY threads in different cultures , different results - sometimes the artists mixed -
but don't make more of it then it was - let the twits , crits & writers for label comp's do that
Dart & Sizzle - Cheers

 

[Poisonous Dart]

Oh yes

Whoa whoa whoa Buick

I dunno what was up in '72 per see ,
but I got here in spring '78 hip hop was already happening in the Bronx
J M Basquiat was living in a box in Tompkins Sq Park at the time , hoping to emulate Mile's artwork
(which he did)
and us 'hipsters' (yea, someone had to make it happen) were making scene @ The Mudd Club on White St. far downtown.
My man Michael Holman ( JM Basquiat's's Gray cohort) brought Afrika B down to DJ at the Mudd soon enough . could find the exact date in my old diaries.
Never heard anyone play James Brown at The Mudd before that night .
I was there , where you were man ? it was a great scene , never to be repeated .
Michael then had his nights @ The Negril on Second Avenue with Phase Two coming down ,
got The Rammellzee to come over from Far Rock and the hiphoppers were coming down and mixing
it up with our scene downtown , lots of ingredients were swapped .

Blondie ? get outta here ! so after the fact , now they were 'hipsters' in the negative way that gets bandied these days , wagon chasers and jumpers
Celluloid started doing their 12" series around this time with Phase Two's "The Roxy" , "Change The Beat" , etc.
Danceteria 1 was during that time , but the one most remember Danceteria 2 was afterwards,
a good place to snog Madonna as they has a nice rooftop and it was dark up there ,
but that was not where the hiphop and post punk first mixed .
Of course, it was where Mark Kamins first mixed Madonna .

Lady Blue (Bless her ' she's an old friend and still in the biz booking thoese DJ's around the world) was Malcolm'a antennae /front on the scene ,
she came in and swooped up the Negril rappers & DJ's - and brought them over to The Roxy and hopped that scene - "Buffalo Gals" afterwards , Malcolm the raider .

Different DIY threads in different cultures , different results - sometimes the artists mixed -
but don't make more of it then it was - let the twits , crits & writers for label comp's do that
Dart & Sizzle - Cheers

Rammelzee...one of my idols. Thanks for the shout, man. One.

 

[BrokenFist]

Rammelzee...one of my idols. Thanks for the shout, man. One.

Is this the same "Rahmelzee" from the New York Noise compilation?

 

[Buick6]

Whoa whoa whoa Buick

I dunno what was up in '72 per see ,
but I got here in spring '78 hip hop was already happening in the Bronx
J M Basquiat was living in a box in Tompkins Sq Park at the time , hoping to emulate Mile's artwork
(which he did)
and us 'hipsters' (yea, someone had to make it happen) were making scene @ The Mudd Club on White St. far downtown.
My man Michael Holman ( JM Basquiat's's Gray cohort) brought Afrika B down to DJ at the Mudd soon enough . could find the exact date in my old diaries.
Never heard anyone play James Brown at The Mudd before that night .
I was there , where you were man ? it was a great scene , never to be repeated .
Michael then had his nights @ The Negril on Second Avenue with Phase Two coming down ,
got The Rammellzee to come over from Far Rock and the hiphoppers were coming down and mixing
it up with our scene downtown , lots of ingredients were swapped .

Blondie ? get outta here ! so after the fact , now they were 'hipsters' in the negative way that gets bandied these days , wagon chasers and jumpers
Celluloid started doing their 12" series around this time with Phase Two's "The Roxy" , "Change The Beat" , etc.
Danceteria 1 was during that time , but the one most remember Danceteria 2 was afterwards,
a good place to snog Madonna as they has a nice rooftop and it was dark up there ,
but that was not where the hiphop and post punk first mixed .
Of course, it was where Mark Kamins first mixed Madonna .

Lady Blue (Bless her ' she's an old friend and still in the biz booking thoese DJ's around the world) was Malcolm'a antennae /front on the scene ,
she came in and swooped up the Negril rappers & DJ's - and brought them over to The Roxy and hopped that scene - "Buffalo Gals" afterwards , Malcolm the raider .

Different DIY threads in different cultures , different results - sometimes the artists mixed -
but don't make more of it then it was - let the twits , crits & writers for label comp's do that
Dart & Sizzle - Cheers

OK..thanks for the history lesson. So where do the Beastie Boys fit into the equation. they were punks. the were post punk. they became hiphop and where the first whitey's to really break-it.

and in reagrd to that nob telling me to get my head straight, well i was just taking the info from someone on this thread that reckons hiphop started in '72, I just assumed this was a fact, that kinda made sense if you consider Gil Scott Herro and early reggae hiphop...

Maybe I shoulda said 'CAN hiphop be considered a FORM of post-punk'. I would say through the 80s a definite YES. Can post-punk be considered a form of hip-hop, well alot of post-punk bands went for that minimalist agit-prop rap sorta thing, so yeah. The crossover of genres post-punk can really do yr head in.