Is hiphop a form of post-punk?

[foret]

maybe we can do an 'implausible genre derivations thread'

(jean baptiste lully => george formby => the sonics => mantronix => haysi fantazee => burning spear) ^ (machaut => basic channel => sean paul) = the vines

and so forth

 

[mistersloane]

maybe we can do an 'implausible genre derivations thread'

(jean baptiste lully => george formby => the sonics => mantronix => haysi fantazee => burning spear) ^ (machaut => basic channel => sean paul) = the vines

and so forth

my eyes just started bleeding. Did you freeform that list off the top of your head? Wow.

 

[SIZZLE]

yeah bigup the people who actually know what they're talking about, I find these derivation threads are usually used to assert the superiority of one genre over another, 90% of the time with only people's imagination to back it up.

For example everyone thinks Timbaland knew about DnB, as if UK people are the first people to do a fast beat. He denies it all the time in interviews, but people ignore him because it doesn't satisfy the story they want to tell.

Now people are trying to say a lot about grime and crunk, how artist X MUST have been listening to artist Y or whatever. I can tell you firsthand that while the grime artists I know like certain crunk or southern tunes they basically live in a bubble that begins and ends more or less with London and don't know 99% of the tunes that people assume are influencing them. Like a lot of people involved in local scenes, mostly, they just don't care what anyone else is doing, there's so much going on around them they don't need to look across the world for influence.

I tend to believe that these ideas develop in many places at the same time, the ideas are in the air it's just a question of who executes and promotes them first, and the fact that someone has done something doesn't mean that someone else has heard or been influenced by it.

 

[SIZZLE]

Also, Rammelzee is a badman, he's still around doing his crazy mask performances and you can catch him on CX Kidtronik's Crack Attack album doing some very weird vocal scatting stuff.

 

[polystyle]

In the evening ...

Yep , The Rammellzee ('the equation , not the man' as he sez) , "Beat Bop" on Noise Comp.,
often copped on Comp's , Profile , etc.
Without whom Cypress Hill would have had to find another place to get a name - or a character voice (based on Ramm's Tricky Dick' WC Field's vox in that case)
Sometimes spelled out as Ramm:El:Zee and so on ...
Happen to have worked with the cat since '84 , produced the "Bi- Conicals" Album for him in '03,
new single "Drag Racing"with my boys Death Comet Crew out July on Berlin's meteosound/shitkatapault.

My reply was late night rambly, not well ordered , sloppy - like the crossovers in that moment .
I save the history for the book , well into the now & future these days.

Buick - you might have been onto something when it could be said that early hip hop DJ's did use rock records (Billy Squier , fer instance) to built breaks from ,
but - 'post funk' was a good reposte there .
Some of yer replies get outta hand.
As half German , sometimes you getta rise and I feel the need for reply bu

Beasties ? well, they were trying to get backstage at the Dominatrix show @ Paradise Garage ,
that's how I remember them.
But no, they were boy punks , right place right time and reliant on Rick Rubin ,
NYU student and Led Zep fan as namechecked in an earlier reply .
No, Rick, no crunchy guitars on those records

Now, back to summer , er fun

 

[stelfox]

Now people are trying to say a lot about grime and crunk, how artist X MUST have been listening to artist Y or whatever. I can tell you firsthand that while the grime artists I know like certain crunk or southern tunes they basically live in a bubble that begins and ends more or less with London and don't know 99% of the tunes that people assume are influencing them. Like a lot of people involved in local scenes, mostly, they just don't care what anyone else is doing, there's so much going on around them they don't need to look across the world for influence.

Hmmm, I've actually found a lot of grime artists to be really conversant with hip-hop. To be brutally honest, I generally know more (for instance, I doubt most of them would know who the fuck Mac Dre, San Quinn, Lil Keke or Killa Kyleon are), but all the same there is a good bit of knowledge there, especially around the bigger names such as Three 6, T.I. Lil Wayne, Jeezy etc. Dizzee was a great example of this (and actually knows a hell of a lot of really underground shit) and Wiley's broad-church musical taste and upbringing is well documented in both the press and his music. Hip-hop does exert a massive influence on grime. It's the other side of that relationship that's a lot more tenuous. While Riko and Jammer et al will know who Lil Jon, Mike Jones, Paul Wall and Papoose are, I very much doubt that the vice versa scenario applies.That's because hip-hop really is a global cultural force now and completely inescapable, whereas you really have to di for grime if you're not in East London. The only rapper I've ever met who has exhibited a real knowledge of, and hunger to learn more about, grime is Bun. Still, I agree that this is overstated on both sides of the story and there is such a thing as unconscious synchronicity of ideas that are out there, being worked through by a number of different people around the world.

 

[foret]

I tend to believe that these ideas develop in many places at the same time, the ideas are in the air it's just a question of who executes and promotes them first, and the fact that someone has done something doesn't mean that someone else has heard or been influenced by it

Not trying to crosspollinate threads too much, but several contemporary composers claimed (and with evidence in most cases) that they developed something very similar to Schoenberg's 12 note system without being aware of each other, it does happen - and that is a higly technical procedure that could hardly come about by accident, if you think of more intuitive composers who play about with sounds then the likelihood of different people finding similar things is increased.

 

[SIZZLE]

stelfox: yeah, I certainly was generalising there and you notice a lot of 'mosts' and '99%'s as there clearly are people who do know about stuff, dizzee is definitely one of them. And many of the grime people I know are very conversant with NYC hiphop, but Crunk and southern stuff much less so. I was more trying to make the point that a lot of observers (ie journalists etc) who have a global and voracious knowledge of music project their own narratives onto new things and try to draw connections which are often tenuous at best, or take one instance and try to create a broader movement or connection, usually to gratify or strengthen their pre-existing views.

and foret: cross pollinate away, I think it's pretty relevant actually. I find as a musician this has happened to me, I'll be doing something which I think is some new thing I just invented and then a while later will hear someone else has done it as well, and I don't think it's because either of us heard or was influenced by the other. If you're mining certain veins certain ideas will appear and if other people are mining that vein as well they may hit on it too, or arrive at it coming from a completely different direction.

 

[PappaWheelie]

b/c

b) it's a rockist attitude to define hip hop in its relation to rock, rather than on it's own merits.

d) lastly, just b/c some rock critics call PE the "clash of hip hop" doesn't make it so...

AMEN PETER!

Hi Dere.

 

[petergunn]

AMEN PETER!

Hi Dere.

yo joe...

great, now you can see me pretending to be smart here...

i got "egypt, egypt" and "throw the P" on 12" this weekend for a dollar each

 

[swears]

Both genres came out in this weird, eceletic era of music when you could see the possibilties ahead, but the conventions of genre and form weren't written in stone.
The end of the Seventies were the time when that postwar optimism was on the wane and people were starting to realise that maybe everything wasn't working out to the modernist program.
I don't really see how they had any direct, huge influence on each other, though.

 

[subvert47]

Is hiphop a form of post-punk?

no

 

[PappaWheelie]

yo joe...

great, now you can see me pretending to be smart here...

good job