Borat

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Godel's faith in mathematical intuition put him in opposition to the mathematical equivalent of positivism, a movement called formalism. Formalism, led by the mathematician David Hilbert, believed that mathematics was, in Hilbert's words, "a game played according to certain simple rules with meaningless marks on paper." Or, as Goldstein describes it, "mathematicians, according to formalism, are not in the business of discovering descriptive truths, whether of the real world of things in physical space or the trans-empirical world of numbers and sets ... They are simply in the business of manipulating the mechanical rules of self-enclosed formal systems."

If formalism were correct, then it followed that mathematics could also be overhauled so that every part of it was "consistent" and the entire system was "complete." It could be boiled down to a set of rules or axioms and procedures so basic and ironclad that a machine -- the computers that were just beyond the historical horizon -- could perform it. It could be finally purged of the paradoxes that had been plaguing the field for hundreds of years.
That doesn't neccessarily follow. The belief that mathematics is an abstract game (or a collection of abstract games) played according to given rules doesn't imply that the rules have to be proveably consistent. That was Hilbert's belief which was bolted on top of formalism.
Mathematical intuition, the source of ideas that can't be formally proven but possessing what Goldstein calls, "the urgent cogency that compels belief," has no place in such a system.

Godel's theorem undermined the rules of formalism by using those rules to prove that the formalist scheme was doomed. In what Goldstein calls "one of the most astounding pieces of mathematical reasoning ever produced," he demonstrated that in the kind of system that the formalists aspired to, it was possible to make a statement that was both unprovable and yet also true. This works a little like the famous "liar's paradox," in which the statement "This statement is false," can only be true if it is also false and vice versa. But Godel's theorem was not a paradox, precisely because it pointed to the difference between what could be proven and what was true.
I agree with the last statement, but afaik, there was no 'formalist scheme'. Formalism is a worldview; it was Hilbert's programme that Godel undermined.
It's easy to see why the distinction confuses people. While Godel might seem to be challenging reason itself, he was, to put a finer point on it, actually demonstrating the inherent problem in a particularly limited form of reasoning.
'An inherent limitation' might be a better phrase than 'the inherent problem'. Just as not being able to travel faster than light is an inherent limitation of trains and not the inherent problem that causes them to be abandoned.

Edit: what does this have to do with the original point anyway? As far as I can tell, it started with IdleRich questioning the validity HundredMillion's informal reasoning, so arguments about the philosophy of mathematics don't really help either side...
 
Last edited:

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Btw, how do the anti-Borat arguments in this thread (that the depiction of racism in Borat encourage racism) fit with the recent arguments in the grime thread that the violently confrontational language in grime doesn't propogate violent attitudes in the grime scene?
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
D84, in the words of Bart Simpson, Hundredmillion's "got nothin." Obviously.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Hundredmillion seems to be either 1)daft, 2)autistic, or 3)his English just isn't so good.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Laughing at pseudo-science. You're off on your hysterical displacements again. So, er, relativity, uncertainty, incompleteness, quantum theory is "anti-science anti-enlightened superstition" because it rejects the clockwork world of Newtonian mechanics and classical logic? Questioning the pseudo-scientific (mis)application of neuroscience to social problems - because of its confusion of symptoms with causes - is, uh, anti-scientific? Claiming that a racist reading of Borat as possibly caused by a neurological disorder is an instance of enlightened science? It is lumpen-empiricist ideological insanity ...

And films like Borat only serve to make it harder to alleviate AIDS in Africa and elsewhere.



Its also basic netiqette to specify the poster to whom you're actually responding, but I'll assume you're referring here to the many posters in this thread who initiated off-topic posts. So which post are you referring to? Or is this an off-topic question?

That is not even close to what I said, and I never claimed to be being scientific. I was talking about schizophrenia w/r/t continental philosophers' ideas about it and positing autism, as schizophrenia's likely little cousin, as maybe the new mode of pathology that will come to define an era. Get a fucking translation program so you can understand people.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
That coffee table book you cited about Goedel is an amateurish joke, btw.
 
N

nomadologist

Guest
Btw, how do the anti-Borat arguments in this thread (that the depiction of racism in Borat encourage racism) fit with the recent arguments in the grime thread that the violently confrontational language in grime doesn't propogate violent attitudes in the grime scene?

Slothrop, there must be some sort of "Brechtian distanciation" that saves grime from racist and violent fantasmic co-inflation, like the one that saves Kubrick in Hundredmillion's eyes, but oddly enough is wholly absent from the movies and pop cultural products that he doesn't find funny. So hip-hop and Borat can't be saved from racism or pornographic ultraviolence, but A Clockwork Orange can because Kubrick withdrew it from one small facet of a global market after already bleeding said market dry and had no real reason to care about losing that market considering the fact that he stood to make millions in the U.S. and he knew it.
 
Get a fucking translation program so you can understand people.

Your translation program is non-computable (though your posting behaviour is usually termed flaming, even on a cold day).


Slothrop said:
what does this have to do with the original point anyway? As far as I can tell, it started with IdleRich questioning the validity HundredMillion's informal reasoning, so arguments about the philosophy of mathematics don't really help either side...

But they're interesting (and anyway, nobody's added anything of quality to the Borat debate here of late), and there is no reason why such a topic should not be discussed here, given that it originated however tangentially from the Borat discussion. But I'll stop here, as a much more interesting discussion on the philosophy of mathematics as ontology (via a discussion of Badiou) is here, a Dissensus thread from just under 2 years ago. And it doesn't mention racism even once.
 

borderpolice

Well-known member
The earlier Badiou quote aside, let's summarise via this review of Rebecca Goldstein's Incompleteness:

To be honest, it is not very productive to discuss remote and marginal commentators in this context. Goedel's theorem is easily one of the most well-studied studied and investigated piece of mathematical philosophy. Most of the original sources (Hilbert and Goedel in this case), and a host of follow-on works are readily available, mostly free of charge on the internet.

Godel's faith in mathematical intuition put him in opposition to the mathematical equivalent of positivism, a movement called formalism. Formalism, led by the mathematician David Hilbert, believed that mathematics was, in Hilbert's words, "a game played according to certain simple rules with meaningless marks on paper."

[As an aside, not relevant for the issue under discussion: this Hilbert quote is most likely apocryphal.]

Or, as Goldstein describes it, "mathematicians, according to formalism, are not in the business of discovering descriptive truths, whether of the real world of things in physical space or the trans-empirical world of numbers and sets ... They are simply in the business of manipulating the mechanical rules of self-enclosed formal systems."

This view of formalism (call it "naive formalism") is probably not held by any working formalist.

If formalism were correct, then it followed that mathematics could also be overhauled so that every part of it was "consistent" and the entire system was "complete."

Sorry but this does not follow at all, even for naive formalism (as slothrop also points out): there is no reason why a formalist should not be content with studying derivability in incomplete systems (or in inconsistent systems, as long as inconsistency is not established; indeed even conventionally inconsistent systems may have interesting derivability, either because they work with more refined notions of inconsistency than that used by Hilbert/Goedel, or because inconsistencies are only derivable using very complex (long) derivations).

Godel's theorem undermined the rules of formalism by using those rules to prove that the formalist scheme was doomed. In what Goldstein calls "one of the most astounding pieces of mathematical reasoning ever produced," he demonstrated that in the kind of system that the formalists aspired to, it was possible to make a statement that was both unprovable and yet also true.

No, Goedel did not demonstarate this. He demonstrated that there are statements A such that neither A nor the negation of A are formally derivable in the ambient theory (assuming that that theory is consistent and contains peano arithmetic). This, according to formalists, does NOT imply that A or the negation of A is true, because for formalists, truth (if this notion is used) means (usually) derivability in a formal system.

This destroyed what is called Hilbert's programme (in a strong reading), but it not clear to what extent Hilbert himself would have made this strong reading. Goedel's theorems are perfectly consistent with formalism.

A good introductory text on Hilbert's programme and its relation with Goedel's theorem is here.

He never abandoned his own faith in another, broader form of reason that includes intuition.

Mathematical intuition, the source of ideas that can't be formally proven but possessing what Goldstein calls, "the urgent cogency that compels belief," has no place in such a system.

The issue here is: where do we get the axioms of our mathematics theories from? I have severe doubts that mathematical intution is particularly helpful. 7 decades of research on the consequences of goedel's theorems make it fairly clear that our intuition is of little help with deciding the truth or falisty of a given axiom.

Philosophy and psychoanalytic theory have been doing just this for many decades. But none of that counts, of course.

They have been trying to do this, but to the best of my knowledge, have never succeeded in going beyond the metaphorical, beyond being suggestive. A fascinating researche programme, to be sure, but one that has failed to live up to its promise to date. I would be most interested to hear that I am wrong about this.
 
Last edited:

luka

Well-known member
its amzaing how you drooling retards miss the point. this is a piss your pants funny film attacking racism and prejudice and you lot disgust me with your blockheadedness.
go and watch it and stop discussing boring philosphers. this is the borat thread.
 

Ach!

Turd on the Run
"I very much like Culky Buchek, you know Culky Buchek? Bing bung, bing bung beng, diddle iddle dee dee..."
 
Another drooling retard, this time the Australian critic from the Herald Sun, pisses in his pants:

Borat the buffoon, by Andrew Bolt

ANDREW BOLT writes: Are these really just jokes about social too-niceties? Or is this film in fact a celebration of their collapse?

IT'S my own fault that Borat made me sick. That I was ashamed I'd also taken my son.

I know it's my fault because even in the dark of the Chadstone cineplex last Wednesday I could tell I was out on my own.

From all the braying and hooting, it was clear I was the only one who didn't think Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan was the funniest joke since that one about the two dirty Jews called Hymie.

And look at the film's box office here. Its huge success in the US. Its rave reviews. "Scathingly funny", declares the Boston Globe.

So, if I'm alone in not getting the joke, it's obvious why. No sense of humour, right?

And you'll agree, I'm sure, when I tell you all the laughs to be had from this film that British comedian Sacha Baron Cohen made of his trip from New York to Los Angeles, pretending to be a Kazakh journalist making a documentary on America.

Deceit is the key to his film. Here's part of the email Baron Cohen's producers sent to a manager of a swish Texan hotel to trick him into letting them film him with "Borat" for his "documentary".

Dear David,

It was great speaking with you today! ...

(We are) privileged to be a part of a new documentary style film that highlights America at its best.

It is our hope that we may capture that "New America" -- sophistication and Southern hospitality -- in Dallas. One way of illustrating this would be to film in a historic Dallas hotel, shooting anything from the grandness of the hotel lobby to the professional look and nature of an experienced service.


Once tricked into helping this nice Kazakh journalist that manager and all the other victims similarly fooled found themselves in fact confronted by a racist, sexist, lewd, pornographic and foul-mouthed alien.

And whether you laugh at what happens next on the screen depends entirely on whether you've got modern sensibilities -- today's delicate appreciation of what is funny and what is not. What is cool and what is cruel.

Let me put it this way. Borat is certainly for you if you like jokes about Jews, gypsies and other foreign types, and think it's funny to call African-Americans "chocolate face".

In fact, anyone who loves seeing the weak humiliated, the victimised mocked, or the polite made to seem stupid, must rush to see a lot of what would please them plenty.

Hurry, folks, and see Baron Cohen embarrass unsuspecting hotel clerks and car salesmen just trying to do their best, or watch him smash racks of antiques of an astonished shopkeeper in Vicksburg.

Watch him excite a couple of university students (first made drunk by Baron Cohen's producers) into saying crassly adolescent things about women and minorities to a world they cannot know is watching -- a world that gets off on being in on Baron Cohen's secret betrayal of people with no power and no comeback.

Watch "Borat" show explicit photographs of a naked boy to a female etiquette coach, or make jokes about raping women to an exasperated driving instructor, or tell a humour coach about his brother having sex with his sister. No joke too vile, no bullying too mean.

Watch this tall man with his alarming looks terrify pedestrians in New York by rushing up to them with arms ready to grab and lips to kiss. See how they run!

Watch especially for the scene at a dinner party in Alabama, to which six kind local people, including a Pentecostal minister and his wife, have come to talk about Christianity to this visiting "Kazakh journalist".

As they try to put their guest at ease, Baron Cohen turns to the minister and, pointing at two of the wives at the table, tells him: "In my country they would go crazy for these two." Then, pointing at the minister's wife, he adds: "You, not so much."

Laugh! You wouldn't have had this much fun since you last made someone cry.

The woman "Borat" points at is, I should remind you, a real person called Sally Speaker, whose face has now been shown to and sniggered at by millions.

She now says: "Lives have been ruined by his comedy. I realise some people will watch the movie and find it funny, but for the people who were duped into appearing, what happened was anything but humorous."

The etiquette coach who arranged that dinner says her business has been ruined. A TV producer who booked "Borat" for an interview on a breakfast show -- during which he offered the host sex with his sister -- soon lost her job. Two of the college boys are suing for the humiliation they've suffered.

But the film's damage isn't just measured in the real people being tricked, humiliated and even harmed. There's also the values it trashes with them.

You know what makes the dinner scene, for instance, so funny to those who still manage to laugh?

It's that the guests behave so kindly for so long to their "Kazakh" guest. As Speaker says: "We thought he was from a foreign country, so we gave him the benefit of the doubt."

Again and again, the film shows courteous people taken advantage of by a man who'll stoop to any trick or meanness to make a joke of them. What fools, to be nice. Of course, the film isn't all a celebration of bullying. Heavens, no. For the more refined there are also the shots of "Borat" apparently defecating on a busy street outside a Trump hotel, or washing his face in a toilet.

At the dinner party he returns from the toilet to the table brandishing a plastic bag of his faeces.

Not your style? Then how about the scene of his hugely nude manager first masturbating, and then suffocating Borat during a naked wrestle by squatting his immensely fleshy backside all over Borat's face? Now, there's a meeting of like with like.

All this makes what is today the biggest comedy on the screens of the Western world -- a hit from London to Hobart. This is the barbarity that has critics wowing and punters howling. Ker-chinggg go the tills.

Naturally, we still have some remnants of shame that make excuses necessary for the fun we're having at the weak's expense.

The most common one given for applauding what should appal is offered by the apologetic critic of the Courier Mail -- that "Borat's prejudice is really just a tool, which prompts biggots (sic) to reveal their prejudices to a wider audience."

Baron Cohen loves that one, too, telling Rolling Stone: "Borat essentially works as a tool. By himself being anti-Semitic, he lets people lower their guard and expose their own prejudices, whether its anti-Semitism or an acceptance of anti-Semitism."

But in the film's entire 84 minutes, I struggled to find just three examples of Borat exposing the prejudices of anyone it tries to trick.

There's the two drunk students, a rodeo manager, who agrees with "Borat" that gays should be hanged, and the rodeo crowd who half cheer when their guest anthem singer from Kazakhstan tells them he supports their "war of terror" and "may George W. Bush drink the blood of every man, woman and child in Iraq."

But even then the cheers soon turn to boos, which forced Baron Cohen to run to the safety of his car, and everywhere else in the film the racist ravings of "Borat" are either politely ignored or fiercely rejected. The police are even called.

Maybe it's true, as some say, that the film just mocks the political correctness that's grown so stifling of late. Maybe Borat makes us laugh more at the prissy rules being broken, than the offence being given.

But is that how it really works? Is this a film that relieves the exhausted polite, or does it in fact just encourage the cretins, who actually need more manners, not more encouragement to mock the few restraints they have left?

Perhaps I might find the answer by watching the screenings in Werribee -- or Lakemba -- to see who laughs loudest, and when.

But what would I know. I lack a sense of humour, right? So help me out. Tell me again how to laugh at the dirty foreigner telling a joke about the rape of his sister. Tell me the one about a kind Christian woman having a bag of s..t thrust in her face.

Are these really just jokes about social too-niceties? Or is this film in fact a celebration of their collapse?

Of course, maybe Baron Cohen was right after all -- Borat does expose prejudices. But I fear that the prejudices he exposes aren't those of anyone on the screen, but of the hyenas laughing in the stalls.​
 

D84

Well-known member
Yeah Andrew Bolt is a melbourne right wing nutter columnist. You can get more of an idea of where he's coming from at sites like this and this.

I saw the Borat the other day. I thought it was very funny - Larry Charles does a great job directing adding his own black touch to the proceedings. Rumours of its racism and subversiveness have been greatly exaggerated - it's still hilarious though.

According to my friend's jewish mother, who was not offended, the "Kazakh" language Borat and his producer speak is actually Hebrew. Make of that what you will...
 
Yeah Andrew Bolt is a melbourne right wing nutter columnist.

Who gives a shit what his supposed "politics" are; that's irrelevant. You're here hopelessly trying to re-define anti-racism as right-wing. Congratulations.

I saw the Borat the other day. I thought it was very funny -

Join the club. Racism is very funny, in't it?

Larry Charles does a great job directing adding his own black touch to the proceedings. Rumours of its racism and subversiveness have been greatly exaggerated - it's still hilarious though.

Larry Charles doesn't know one end of a camera from the other. I haven't seen a more badly directed film in years. "Rumours". There's nothing "subversive" about racism - its the smug, complacent norm of today's political unconscious. And no rumoured shortage of it hereabouts. Hilarious, in't it?

According to my friend's jewish mother, who was not offended, the "Kazakh" language Borat and his producer speak is actually Hebrew. Make of that what you will...

Your friend's jewish mother has a great future as a "right wing nutter columnist."
 
Subject Supposed To Be A Drooling Retard

More amusing diversions from yet more right-wing nutter columnists. Oh what fun!

BORAT'S BIG COCK

November 16, 2006
Dejan


K-punk rightly remarked that Borat's outings are both racist and unfunny, but now that Borat is a global multimedia phenomenon, I don't believe it was a career-ending turn for Sasha Cohen.

So why is Borat so successful?

I am firmly convinced that it all has to do with the projections of Western sexual frustration onto the East: we are talking here about a two-meter tall, exotic-looking man. In the minds of English housewives, who are surely Cohen's most secure target population at the moment, he must have a really BIG DICK. I mean why do you think old Madonna sponsored him into this inexplicably stratospheric comic success?

That said, the unfortunate thing is that many Borat episodes are pure reality TV. I remember one sketch in which a couple of frigid upper class Britons are continuously taken aghast by Borat's farting, burping and talking about sex. In another example, he was asking some pony-riders at a posh riding event whether they like young boys. And so on.

All this is sad because I have seen such Britons: they exist in real life. That's true, friends. The same old Victorian rags that inspired Hitchcock's to his psychosexual thrillers, still exist in the world, and nobody wants to kill them with insecticide.

If you are interested to find out more about the Big Cock Conundrum, you are well-advised to see the French film VERS LE SUD instead of BORAT.

In this film, rich French housewives go out into the colonies to hunt for the big Eastern dick. As predictable, and even though we would never see this in an American film, like DRIVING MISS DAISY, nothing ever works between the old wives and the young suckers. It's not just that the generation gap is too big, but also the housewives' status of privilege cannot be removed as an issue. As Kim Dammit likes to say, YOU CAN'T ESCAPE CLASS.​

Prejudice is something that other people have

Date: November 16 2006
Christopher Scanlon


WRITING in 2000 after almost 10 years of fighting in the Balkans, Slovenian philosopher Slavoj Zizek noted that much of the commentary on the war revealed as much about the prejudices of the commentators as it did of the combatants. In particular, Zizek observed the barely concealed racism running throughout much of the commentary on the Balkan wars: the conflicts were portrayed as the latest in a long history of vicious melodramas among infantile peoples whose cultures remained mired in tribal barbarity.

Such comments were all the more remarkable because they often came from people who would never dare apply such appalling stereotypes to other cultural groups, such as African Americans. But because the Balkans is part of Europe, and therefore "part of us", such sensitivities could safely be dispensed with. In Zizek's words, "The Balkans constitute a place of exception with regard to which the tolerant multiculturalist is allowed to act out his/her repressed racism."

With the release of Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan, we might add central Asia to the places of exception. There is a similar thread of repressed racism running through the enjoyment of the Borat movie. Since few of us will ever go to Kazakhstan or meet Kazakhs who might be offended by such caricatures, it's the perfect place on which good multiculturalists can safely project our prejudices.

The Kazakh Government's flat-footed attempts to counter the poor image of Kazakhstan presented in the film have only helped to reinforce such images. Late last November, for example, Kazakh Foreign Ministry spokesman Yerzhan Ashykbayev threatened Borat's creator, Sacha Baron Cohen, with "legal measures" for his continued pillorying of Kazakhstan. In a sublime twist, Borat responded by supporting his "Government's decision to sue this Jew" — Baron Cohen is Jewish — before going on to boast of Kazakhstan's progressive and pluralistic culture, illustrated by the news that homosexuals no longer have to wear blue hats, that women are now allowed to travel on the insides of buses and that the age of consent had been raised to eight.

To some extent, the Kazakh Government misses the point of the Borat film, insofar as most of the jokes are not targeted at Kazakhs at all. Kazakhstan is simply a convenient stick with which to poke fun at a culture that is so ignorant of the rest of the world that it swallows the idea that there exists a whole country populated by boorish fools who have only incompletely made it to modernity.

His clumsy attempts to ingratiate himself with his host enable him to get away with murder. At one point in the film, Borat addresses a US rodeo audience and, in his mangled English, enthusiastically pledges Kazakhstan's support for "your country's war of terror", to the rapturous applause of the crowd.

But even accepting this, Cohen's Borat routines are a roundabout way of mocking people — both in the US and in Kazakhstan — who are different from, and have had few of the opportunities enjoyed by, liberal multiculturalists.

To some extent, of course, all humour trades in caricatures, and Borat relies on the ignorance of his victims. What's telling about Borat, though, is the precise contours of the caricature: his misogyny, racism, and homophobia — all of which are presented as entirely normal and natural — are the exact inversion of liberal multicultural politics.

By embodying everything liberal multiculturalists oppose and opening them up to ridicule, Borat works to prop up our own commitment to liberal tolerance. He conjures up a distant people and place through which liberal multiculturalists can distinguish themselves, thereby confirming everything that they are not.

The appearance of Borat and this backward land is particularly timely, given that the foundations of liberal tolerance in the West are beginning to look decidedly creaky. Guantanamo Bay, attempts to circumvent the Geneva Convention, the maltreatment of asylum seekers, the continued demonisation of Muslim culture, the sedition laws and the drift towards authoritarianism, to mention a few examples, are all evidence of a retreat from liberalism. Similarly, the defence of intelligent design as a legitimate part of the school science curriculum as a legitimate choice, even by supposedly hard-headed opponents of cultural relativism such as Brendan Nelson, are indicative of a retreat from reason.

For those who watch these developments with mounting alarm, Borat works to soothe our anxieties. We can console ourselves by using humour to distance ourselves from such developments. Borat plays the role of the scapegoat carting away our anxieties and confirming for us that all of those things exist elsewhere. Because he did not exist, he had to be invented.

In this regard, Cohen's comic creation reveals much more about our own prejudices, anxieties and contradictions than we might care to admit.

Christopher Scanlon is a co-editor of Arena Magazine and a research associate of RMIT University's Globalism Institute.​
 

Guybrush

Dittohead
Sorry for bringing up this thread again, but I have just seen the movie and would like to point out that I think it is resolutely unfunny: most sketches being poor rehashes of those from the tv-series and Cohen lacking the fine-tuned flair for comic extemporization that he exhibited there. I did not feel embarrassed for the involuntary participants, but for the production team thinking their awkwardness makes for great humour in itself, their seeming belief that embarrassing situations—with some cultural clashes thrown in for good measure—is all it takes to achieve comic grandness.
 
Top