Rock 'n' roll: more harm than good?

[SIZZLE]

HAhaha poor swears. I've joined in the swears bashing in his past posts along these lines when he's attacked things I feel more proprietary about, but I feel this has become a bit of a pile on.

Still he does seem to have a talent for getting OTHER people to write good posts

Definitely a bit OTT pointing out facts of people's personal and economic situation on a public forum though, I know many people who are probably highly respected on this board who lived with Mom untill way after 24.

I think the basic problem with the original post is it's taking a kind of 'I feel Rock is false and harmful because it promised social revolution and doesn't deliver' position. What I hear is a tone of petulant disappointment more than anything else. Music, while deep and meaningful, possibly vital and necessary to many of us, is ENTERTAINMENT. Sometimes it transcends that and becomes Art, but pinning your hopes for major social change, justice, coherent political thought etc. on it is just expecting a bit too much, imho.

 

[nomadologist]

expecting anything to save mankind so your life and the lives of others can be optimal according to some set of ideals is just kind of ... odd... unless you actually try to do something about those problems as well

 

[nomadologist]

PS nothing is rigged by business or industry. business and industry amount to trying to stem the tide of a marketplace. business/industry are the very enterprise that is trying to predict market trends and harness them accordingly. all the power is on the consumer side, really. if something won't sell, they won't be able to continue to make it. it's that simple, at a certain level.

 

[nomadologist]

I think the question is when did it become OK to question the fanatics. Fuck the soulless Pitchfork eclecticism. Even though I disagree with a good 80% of what Poisonous Dart has to say, I think he's by far the best hiphop writer on here mainly because hes a true fanatic. I may not agree with him but at least I can respect him, unlike someone that spent the 90s listening to Pavement and now regurgitates cliches about Timbo reinventing hiphop, "crack rap", hyphy, cough syrup etc. etc..
w/ regards to Nickelback.. you've got it twisted. Nickelback is music of the people, Nelly Furtado is not. Trust me, theres a reason why Nickelback sell so well. Its not rigged. They strike a chord with hosers everywhere. Nelly Furtado lives in my city, and I can't think of anyone who relates to her in the way that the legions of ex-grunge hosers relate to Nickelback. They are the quintessential Canadian bar band. Nelly Furtado, by comparison, is an airbrushed Americanized media construction.

fanaticism is why nazi germany happened

and here in brooklyn where there are TONS of latinos, nelly furtado is IT.

 

[Guybrush]

fanaticism is why nazi germany happened.

Eh, yes, but there's also good fanaticism: love, for example. Maybe ‘infatuation’ is a better term.

My apologies for the sloven use of the ‘hipster’ (God, I hate that word) term up-thread, Nomadologist gave one definition of the word (the one I used) neatly:

Hipsters are nothing more or less than what, in advertising and business, we like to call "early adapters." They're upper middle class, college educated, dual-income professional family bred hyperconnected, hypersocialized, hyperworldly hyperconsumers who are so far ahead of the consumer curve that they draw the line behind them.

Soundslike1981 gave another definition (equally useful, and widely in use as a pejorative here and elsewhere):

hipsterism to me is about the pretense of enjoying something primarily because of how one imagines one will be percieved for ones "taste;" whereas being an addict/geek has primarily to do with a pure and simple obsession with the art that humans are capable of creating.

DWD:

Capitalism requires you to earn enough money to live. Beyond that, what other demands does it make?

That you consume—A LOT.

 

[nomadologist]

fanaticism is just a very erotic pathology. hard to resist at points but better to avoid

 

[MATT MAson]

I'm not sure why Swears got such a shoeing either, this seems like it sparked an interesting debate.

It reminded me of what Bono said when launching the "Red" American Express card, Gap clothes, Nikes and whatever else he was peddling, and announcing "this is punk capitalism."

Obviously this oxymoron - used in this context, by Bono and said corporate buddies, quickly induces nausea, and rightly so.

But I like this expression.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say youth culture has made a huge difference, not at all.
Of course, it hasn’t changed capitalism as it stands as a theoretical construct, but youth movements have had actual, tangible effects on society, and the positives outweigh the negative by a long way.

I don't see anything wrong with bashing the boomers for harping on about changing the world in retirement commercials, wallowing in their gloriously productive misspent youth while the rest of us look in horror at the world we've inherited from them –
I remember Vice doing a whole issue on this last year which I thought was one of their funniest in ages. Cynicism is healthy in moderation, but rock did make a difference, it's just become a cliché to say so, and for good reason.

But the same goes for all types of youth culture. They all make a difference in some way, however small.

Commercial hip-hop is violent, misogynistic, retarded, blah blah etc, but it made a difference in the Bronx in the early 1970s. What the Zulu Nation did had a very real positive impact on a desperate community. It is the consensus among music historians that gang violence in the South Bronx was less of a problem thanks to their efforts. Hip-hop is still making a huge difference today in the Favelas of Rio. Kofi Annan described hip-hop as a 'language,' and sees it as a tool for poor communities to find a voice. This was, of course, at least 95% down-with-the-kids polemics, but the UN has created hip-hop based initiatives as a part of the UN development goals. A friend of mine is running such a UN project in the Sudan. She says it’s making a difference. I believe her.
The effect of 'remix culture' on many areas of commerce and business, as so well observed by people like Lawrence Lessig, is undeniable. Graffiti has a had a very real effect on many people in the advertising industry, in fact I've interviewed a few high flying ad execs this year who lead double lives as graffiti artists at night. Punk inspired a ton of good ideas, and has influenced a lot of decision makers - the roots of many types of 'social entrepreneurship’ can be found here.

The links between 60s counterculture, the rave movement and the rise of the open source movement are impossible to ignore - if you look at the guys in the homebrew computer club, who built the first PC, you will find a bunch of old hippies and left wing activists. Steve Jobs was taking a lot of LSD before he started building Apples. Shawn Fanning who started Napster was a card carrying, ecstasy-dropping convert of the rave movement. The open source movement is undermining the very nature of the protestant work ethic that underpins capitalism – you can trace these ideas all the way back through youth movements to rock ‘n’ roll.

I won't go on, but I've been researching and writing about this stuff pretty much full time for over a year now, and there have been very real and dramatic consequences that have followed the rise and fall of many subcultures. IMHO, youth movements have and will continue to make a difference to society - ie consumers, and by extension, the nature of capitalism. Please shoot me down on all this if you can, it would really help me strengthen my argument.

 

[Guybrush]

I think obsession is one of man's most endearing traits, most architectural triumphs stem from idées fixes, for example.

 

[nomadologist]

if there is no distinction to be drawn between racism, sexism, violence, etc. as topical within art, and racism, sexism, violence as necessarily manifested in any artwork where it is topical, then what is any text--or even better, what is art? i can't stand the idea that talking about the misogyny, racism, etc. rampant in the inner city is somehow to subscribe to it. that seems so ridiculously dumb to me i get pretty annoyed thinking about it.

 

[nomadologist]

but when you get into our era of technofetishism it gets pretty rough Guybrush, right? WWII

 

[nomadologist]

I'm not sure why Swears got such a shoeing either, this seems like it sparked an interesting debate.

It reminded me of what Bono said when launching the "Red" American Express card, Gap clothes, Nikes and whatever else he was peddling, and announcing "this is punk capitalism."

Obviously this oxymoron - used in this context, by Bono and said corporate buddies, quickly induces nausea, and rightly so.

But I like this expression.

I don’t think it’s ridiculous to say youth culture has made a huge difference, not at all.
Of course, it hasn’t changed capitalism as it stands as a theoretical construct, but youth movements have had actual, tangible differences on society, and the positives outweigh the negative by a long way.

I don't see anything wrong with bashing the boomers for harping on about changing the world in retirement commercials, wallowing in their gloriously productive misspent youth while the rest of us look in horror at the world we've inherited from them –
I remember Vice doing a whole issue on this last year which I thought was one of their funniest in ages. Cynicism is healthy in moderation, but rock did make a difference, it's just become a cliché to say so, and for good reason.

But the same goes for all types of youth culture. They all make a difference in some way, however small.

Commercial hip-hop is violent, misogynistic, retarded, blah blah etc, but it made a difference in the Bronx in the early 1970s. What the Zulu Nation did had a very real positive impact on a desperate community. It is the consensus among music historians that gang violence in the South Bronx was less of a problem thanks to their efforts. Hip-hop is still making a huge difference today in the Favelas of Rio. Kofi Annan described hip-hop as a 'language,' and sees it as a tool for poor communities to find a voice. This was, of course, at least 95% down-with-the-kids polemics, but the UN has created hip-hop based initiatives as a part of the UN development goals. A friend of mine is running such a UN project in the Sudan. She says it’s making a difference. I believe her.
The effect of 'remix culture' on many areas of commerce and business, as so well observed by people like Lawrence Lessig, is undeniable. Graffiti has a had a very real effect on many people in the advertising industry, in fact I've interviewed a few high flying ad execs this year who lead double lives as graffiti artists at night. Punk inspired a ton of good ideas, and has influenced a lot of decision makers - the roots of many types of 'social entrepreneurship’ can be found here.

The links between 60s counterculture, the rave movement and the rise of the open source movement are impossible to ignore - if you look at the guys in the homebrew computer club, who built the first PC, you will find a bunch of old hippies and left wing activists. Steve Jobs was taking a lot of LSD before he started building Apples. Shawn Fanning who started Napster was a card carrying, ecstasy-dropping convert of the rave movement. The open source movement is undermining the very nature of the protestant work ethic that underpins capitalism – you can trace these ideas all the way back through youth movements to rock ‘n’ roll.

I won't go on, but I've been researching and writing about this stuff pretty much full time for over a year now, and there have been very real and dramatic consequences that have followed the rise and fall of many subcultures. IMHO, youth movements have and will continue to make a difference to society - ie consumers, and by extension, the nature of capitalism. Please shoot me down on all this if you can, it would really help me strengthen my argument.

applause. writing a paper about the DRMA and open sourcing. any sources you can recommend??

 

[Guybrush]

if there is no distinction to be drawn between racism, sexism, violence, etc. as topical within art, and racism, sexism, violence as necessarily manifested in any artwork where it is topical, then what is any text--or even better, what is art? i can't stand the idea that talking about the misogyny, racism, etc. rampant in the inner city is somehow to subscribe to it. that seems so ridiculously dumb to me i get pretty annoyed thinking about it.

I'm not sure I follow you here. Surely, nobody takes offense with ‘talking about the misogyny, racism, etc. rampant in the inner city’. It's when artists enact these concepts, ostensibly to put focus on them, it gets problematic. Art is whatever you want it to be, but not all art is wholesome; the infamous ‘Whisper Song’ may well be art, it's definitely thrilling to me, but it's foolish to assume that it therefore must be salubrious. ‘The Ballad of Lt. Calley’, that was posted in the ‘Taliban in Pop’-thread, serves as a good example of a song that I like in perverse way but would never, ever, defend on a moral level, it's the dark underbelly of me that enjoys it and to pretend otherwise is illusory; it's the same with misogynist hip-hop et alii.

 

[swears]

It reminded me of what Bono said when launching the "Red" American Express card, Gap clothes, Nikes and whatever else he was peddling, and announcing "this is punk capitalism."

This is one of the main reasons I made this post, idiots like bono thinking they can make a difference.
Fucking hell, I wish I was smart enough to actually back up some of the things I say, I'm as seduced by radical ideas as much as bono and his ilk are seduced by the mighty dollar. But I just wish things were different, that I lived in some some parallel universe where evething wasn't so disgusting, egotistical and tragic.

 

[MATT MAson]

applause. writing a paper about the DRMA and open sourcing. any sources you can recommend??

Certainly.

Off the top of my head, the Cathederal and the Bazaar by Eric S. Raymond is a great place to start, as is a lot of Lessig's work. Also check out Howard Rheingold's book Smart Mobs, Democratizing Innovation by Eric Von Hippel and most definitly The Hacker Ethic by Pekka Himanen.

 

[nomadologist]

thanks matt! i'll check those out soon.

 

[tatarsky]

This is one of the main reasons I made this post, idiots like bono thinking they can make a difference.
Fucking hell, I wish I was smart enough to actually back up some of the things I say, I'm as seduced by radical ideas as much as bono and his ilk are seduced by the mighty dollar. But I just wish things were different, that I lived in some some parallel universe where evething wasn't so disgusting, egotistical and tragic.

This is it though, isn't it? Rock DID make a difference, but all of victories have been totally absorbed into modern culture, and moreover the antics of BoBono are weakened by their belonging to the status quo, no matter how much they attempt to use the name of rock to project some revolutionary status on their ambitions. THIS is what is so irksome about them, its not so much that they think they can make a difference (this is a good thing, no?), but its how they pin their ineffectual (and counterproductive) campaigns under the name of rock. Their crimes are twofold - the stupidity of the campaigns themselves, and the PR attack conducted in rockist clothes.

---

Matt,

Agree with many of your themes below, although I would take issue with your branding of the phrase "punk capitalism" as oxymoronic. In fact, you could argue that every single one the youth cultures you describe below was so effective precisely because they came closest to free market ideas. All could be thought of as great examples of entrepreneurial spirit, and as involvement in and establishment of markets most like those that the classical economics of David Ricardo and Adam Smith describe, as opposed to the modern version of 'capitalism' that we observe today, that I'd argue bares very little resemblence to the theoretical models, no matter how much the neo-classicists try and hide behind calculus and algebra.

 

[Precious Cuts]

fanaticism is why nazi germany happened

and here in brooklyn where there are TONS of latinos, nelly furtado is IT.

yes fanatacism engenders nazism... along with every worthwhile thing that mankind has ever accomplished.

I don't exactly see what latinos in Brooklyn have to do with Nelly Furtado. She's not a latina for one thing. That her pop music is popular in a demographic towards which a string of high profile singles have just been marketted does not strike me as a remarkable or relevant point. I don't know if you have heard her past work (before she got the Timbo facelift) but its straight adult contemporary shlock in the vein of "What if God were one of us". Now that she's produced by Timbo all of a sudden she's the voice of the disenfranchised or something. Sorry Im not buying it.

 

[slye]

This reminds me of one of the classic Blissout quotes:

Things ain't right from the name on downwards. The Nelly is bad enough, but the surname sounds like some kind of dubious Latin American comestible: ground meat stuffed in a bull's pizzle, maybe. Something you'd be wary of putting in your mouth. Beyond that, this girl is just so fucking full of beans. She needs to be suppressed, stifled.

 

[MATT MAson]

Matt,

Agree with many of your themes below, although I would take issue with your branding of the phrase "punk capitalism" as oxymoronic. In fact, you could argue that every single one the youth cultures you describe below was so effective precisely because they came closest to free market ideas. All could be thought of as great examples of entrepreneurial spirit, and as involvement in and establishment of markets most like those that the classical economics of David Ricardo and Adam Smith describe, as opposed to the modern version of 'capitalism' that we observe today, that I'd argue bares very little resemblence to the theoretical models, no matter how much the neo-classicists try and hide behind calculus and algebra.

I am in agreement with you on this - definitely the conclusion I seem to be coming to - that all of these important movements have battled to level the economic playing field/topple the corporate pyramid in one way or another, the utopian dream does indeed seem to be a free market one.

I only meant it was an oxymoron in that a lot of "punks" wouldn't like this idea very much. Or at least, they might not have done in the 1970s. I interviewed Richard Hell and he read over my theories on all this, and I was pretty surprised when he didn't rip my head off and tell me it was all a load of rubbish.

As for the neo-classical massive's blinkered ways, you should chack out the whole Post-Austistic Economics movement, very interesting...

http://www.paecon.net/

 

[qwerty south]

how many hip hop musicians have killed themselves?