Kevin Shields bringing back MBV!

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Bilinda's witterings are still far from fleshy/bodily, but of course he's talking about the album sound-world, not the singing.

But that's crap, especially with an album where the singing is reduced to sound rather than enunciation. I hate the sound of her voice, I hate all that fey girl indie singing shit, and essentially that's what MBV are, with effects pedals. It's no surprise that fey indie people get all worked up about them.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
my biggest problem with MBV is that for all their high-concept and analog purism, they end up sounding really hissy on the treble and have no frequency range, as dynamic as they try to be. kind of sounds forced, the churning thing.
 
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martin

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"Loveless" is one of the few albums I've heard that actually made me physically sick on hearing it, it was like being forced to have sex with a care bear - in syrup. I hope Shields stays in bed for another 15 years...
 

dHarry

Well-known member
The last sacred cow gets filleted by Dissensus wrecking cru!

I think k-punk's "carnal" point was something like Steven Shaviro's account of MBV, and which nomadologist's point about lack of well-defined sonics and dynamics misses, despite being descriptively correct:

qualities sometimes described as 'dreamy' and 'ethereal' by listeners who haven't played the Loveless CD at sufficiently high volume. But such words fail to convey how deeply embodied--how physically attentive, you might say--this music actually is. The sound may be vague, murky, "miasmatic" (Rachel Felder); but the murk is precisely rendered, a concrete, material presence. It surrounds you, envelops you, enfolds itself around you.
[...]
The usual hierarchy of rhythm (at the bottom, the steady foundation), harmony (in the middle, providing the armature) and melody (on the top, with leading lines and hooks) gets broken down, and reshuffled into new combinations. Often it's impossible to determine which of the musicians is producing any given sound, or even which sounds are being played live, and which have been pre-synthesized. In short, all the usual cues are missing; you are brought into forced contact with the gritty texture, the raw materiality of the music,
[...]
There's no longer a clear distinction between inside and outside, or between subject and object. The music has become an extension of your flesh; or better, your flesh is now an extension of the music. Your ears, your eyes, your mouth, your crotch, and your skin are absorbed into this irregularly pulsing, anexact, indefinitely extendible space, this postmodern mega-mall. The great ephemeral skin, Lyotard calls it: a labyrinth, or a hall of mirrors, continually breaking and reforming. It's really strange: the more 'alienating' the situation gets (to use that old-fashioned term), the more intimate it feels. Jameson calls it the "hallucinatory intensity" of "schizophrenic disjunction." Or better, think of it as an overwhelming feeling of proximity, crushing and caressing you at once.

Martin, did it really make you sick? That's quite a reaction, and could also be related to the above quote, all of which is neatly summed up by "sex with a care bear in syrup" ;-)
 
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martin

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Martin, did it really make you sick? That's quite a reaction, and could also be related to the above quote, all of which is neatly summed up by "sex with a care bear in syrup" ;-)

It didn't quite make me vomit, but as good as, I find it completely nauseating. I just think it's a trite, worthless waste of time, sheer self-indulgence for the people who made it. And actually, for once, that's not based on the people who listen to it, though I wish the album's defenders would tell me what they really get out of it. I'm genuinely interested to know, because I'm completely baffled that anyone would want to listen to the fucking thing.
 
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Canada J Soup

Monkey Man
If there isn't one already, we should definitely have a 'slaughtering sacred cows' thread.

Probably only a handful of them left at this stage though.
 

martin

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ouch! clearly, I'm one of those who gets some out of loveless, but i'll have to think about this one...

But what do you get? It just sounds so miserable and...what do you do when you listen to it? What does it make you feel inside? Does it have the power to make you laugh or cry?
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
The last sacred cow gets filleted by Dissensus wrecking cru!


Shaviro's account - potted Deleuze and Lyotard - is good in that it's about the MBV live experience, which as I said before, was good, they were fucking loud.

But this pseudo-'carnality' that is being forced upon Loveless, it's just not there. The fuzziness is the sound of four people pissing away half a million on heroin and then coming up with dry indie floss put through effects and fooling journalists in the process.
 

dHarry

Well-known member
I wish the album's defenders would tell me what they really get out of it. I'm genuinely interested to know, because I'm completely baffled that anyone would want to listen to the fucking thing.
didn't you read the k-punk or Shaviro pieces? Here's some more Shaviro:
Everything is just too close to your eyes to be brought into sharp focus. The noise-laden air is suffocating; it presses down on your lungs, and scarcely gives you enough space to breathe. Yet you're trembling with excitement, or maybe with anticipation. Your flesh is all aflutter. The sound cradles and embraces you, inviting--even demanding--a sensuous, tactile response. Is it too much to say that this music feels sexy and sexual, even though it can't be identified with one particular gender? Not just because men and women share equal duties in the band. But because the sound of My Bloody Valentine has a lovely, playful evasiveness; it slips and slides easily around all sorts of distinctions conventionally associated with the binaries of gender. This music is both hard and soft, both noisy and lyrical; it penetrates and envelops you at once.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
i think you could take their songs and with a better vocalist and better production values manage to make something decent out of them, but it would take some skill. i think they've just dated terribly. their overall effect is a lot more saccharine-sounding now i remembering it being then. also i kinda remember (though i was way young) them being a cut above 4AD stuff in terms of "edginess" and not being gauzygothy dreampop, right? was i young and deluded?

aside from all that, the only "intimacy" analog i can see to their sonics is the claustrophobia of their wall of sound sort of over-reliance on reverb and distortion in the wrong places. it's like all their music pivots on this one point tied by tethers that are barely a few inches long. call me crazy, but claustrophobic "intimacy" is not my ideal sexual experience. bondage, yes, maybe. but loveless sounds like the stuff horribly suffocating codependent drug-abuse based relationships are made of. some minimal techno even manages to more "carnal" than loveless. e.g. anything by matias aguayo.

souvlaki is much much better than loveless, imo, and even that has some terribly annoying nasal vocals. eno > shields at production, as if that needs stating.

remember infinitely worse bands like curve that were saturating college radiowaves at the time? heh.
 
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swears

preppy-kei
Well, I like Loveless, and that's saying a lot for a guitar record although I think Kevin Sheilds was playing effects more than any instrument. Isn't Anything just sounds like Dinosaur Jr or something, there's a couple of good tunes on there, I suppose.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
two of the most important things to have if you want to signify "carnal" sonically, imo, are 1) bass, and 2) saturation/moisture. loveless has neither. i think whoever you're citing is WAY OFF with applying the jameson schizophrenic disjunction thing, too. the most physical frequencies are bass frequencies. i think there's a lot of wishful thinking going on there with the whole idea that loveless is subverting binaries w/r/t gender. come again? that female vocalist seems to be receiving masochistic pleasure from the pain of lack. bittersweet. the melancholy of gender, that kind of thing. you could easily turn the tables on the Jameson reading. i'm trying to decide whether i'd use irigaray or cixous.

PS dHarry, I never said it didn't have "well-defined sonics or dynamics". I said it didn't have a full frequency range--i.e. a full, rich range of frequencies filling out the atmosphere from the very lowest bass to the highest treble. when you write completely in the midrange-midtreble ranges, use a bunch of hissy natural distortion on top of way too many effects pedals, and don't have any roundness to your lower midrange, let alone your basstones, you end up sounding depthless and, imo, awful.
 
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Slothrop

Tight but Polite
two of the most important things to have if you want to signify "carnal" sonically, imo, are 1) bass, and 2) saturation/moisture. loveless has neither.
It's certainly not sexy in the way garage is. But although I've not read kpunk's piece I can see how you'd see it as carnal - a sort of infinitely protracted orgasm.

I love the album, although I'd be hard pressed to explain why in a detailed fashion. It just spins you out and pulls you in in a really good way.
 
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nomadologist

Guest
there's no real tension, though. it's more oceanic to me than carnal. the tension works like waves where it builds in little peaks, crests, then washes away. maybe it forms eddies. but there's no build-up and the release comes too often to be orgasmic. there's too much balance. it's seasick with its own dispassion, the sexuality of loveless, like being tossed about on the waves of someone else's feeling. if it could be a little more melancholy or a little more frustrated or a lot less centripetal...

a lot of people think of love as an oceanic feeling. so here's where the difference is going to lie, i suppose. i don't feel it that way.

PS I used to love this album. I just haven't been able to listen to it at all for a few years now.
 
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mms

sometimes
"Loveless" is one of the few albums I've heard that actually made me physically sick on hearing it, it was like being forced to have sex with a care bear - in syrup. I hope Shields stays in bed for another 15 years...

i kind of get your point, i'm not really a massive fan of that record, it doesn't quite work for me, perhaps cos it cos all the best and most interesting bits are too short, there are passages on it that i'd like to go on for ages and develop, but there are too many actual songs on there, which are just blurry versions of pop songs, which is fine but not terribly exciting.

So maybe i'm coming from the other side. still no one has really done anything quite like it, there are loads of watered down more indie versions with proper songs, and a bit of fluffy feedbacking guitar, nothing has really gone the other way and just got into a total headfuck, where all the parts fit anyway.

someone mentioned dinosaur jnr, and in the oceanic scheme of things i think they knew how to use feedback in a fairly vicious oceanic way.
 
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