War In Iran

[Mr. Tea]

Well, for one thing there's a strong current of anti-Western/anti-American sentiment running through many Islamic countries and ethnic groups, be they Shia or Sunni, Arab, Persian or Pakistani: Hezbullah and al-Qu'eda may not see eye-to-eye on matters of theology, but they certainly agree on their attitude to Israel, America and Britain.

(Please note that I'm not trying to put those two groups in the same political or moral category, by the way.)

 

[old goriot]

Well, for one thing there's a strong current of anti-Western/anti-American sentiment running through many Islamic countries and ethnic groups, be they Shia or Sunni, Arab, Persian or Pakistani: Hezbullah and al-Qu'eda may not see eye-to-eye on matters of theology, but they certainly agree on their attitude to Israel, America and Britain.

(Please note that I'm not trying to put those two groups in the same political or moral category, by the way.)

Last year I lived with one exiled persian ba'hai and two pakistani sunnis. They are anti-american for the same reason that everyone else is. they read znet and chomsky. they are educated and have the internet over there. Like 95% of the world they hate America - news flash- everyone outside of the three countries in question is disgusted by the US, UK and Isreal. The difference is that they are muslim.. so automatically they hate America because of their religion. this mentality that hatred of the west is part of islam is pure nonsense. it's an excuse for people on both sides to try to turn political grievances into a bullshit "clash of civilizations" being led and cheered on by the uncivilized.

 

[Mr. Tea]

OK, so plenty of non-Muslims hate America - plenty of Americans hate America; while I certainly wouldn't make an assertion as bald and stupid that I despise an entire country, I certainly don't like its leadership or foreign policy. I am in no way defending America, or Britain's own collusion in some of its dirty dealings, and Israel is just off the scale. But isn't it fair to say that, if you were to take a world-wide poll, the average Muslim would probably have a lower opinion of America than the average non-Muslim? I don't see people burning Old Glory in the streets of Mumbai, Moscow or Beijing.

 

[vimothy]

Last year I lived with one exiled persian ba'hai and two pakistani sunnis. They are anti-american for the same reason that everyone else is. they read znet and chomsky.

Does al-Qaeda also read Chomsky, I wonder?

 

[old goriot]

OK, so plenty of non-Muslims hate America - plenty of Americans hate America; while I certainly wouldn't make an assertion as bald and stupid that I despise an entire country, I certainly don't like its leadership or foreign policy. I am in no way defending America, or Britain's own collusion in some of its dirty dealings, and Israel is just off the scale. But isn't it fair to say that, if you were to take a world-wide poll, the average Muslim would probably have a lower opinion of America than the average non-Muslim? I don't see people burning Old Glory in the streets of Mumbai, Moscow or Beijing.

That is a faulty comparison. Look at the areas that have experienced equal amounts of american politcal intervention in the last three decades... ie South America. Notice any anti-americanism there? Im sure anti-Americanism in many south american coutries as just as great as in Iran.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Does al-Qaeda also read Chomsky, I wonder?

Vice-versa, possibly.

 

[old goriot]

Does al-Qaeda also read Chomsky, I wonder?

Would that make him a disciple of the West?

 

[vimothy]

I guess I'm trying to ask the same question I asked before: are the reasons that America is unpopular on the Dissensus boards the same reasons that America is unpopular in the middle east? Are liberal westerners annoyed by the same things as reactionary and ultra-conservative muslims?

 

[Mr. Tea]

That is a faulty comparison. Look at the areas that have experienced equal amounts of american politcal intervention in the last three decades... ie South America. Notice any anti-americanism there? Im sure anti-Americanism in many south american coutries as just as great as in Iran.

I was thinking about South America as I wrote my last post, actually, but I decided to give the examples I gave to counter your assertion that "95% of the world hates America". While it's obvious that not many people outside the US actively like the country, I'm sure many other countries view it mainly as a useful trading partner, and in some cases as a potential protector (as non-nuclear Japan must be feeling at the moment, given North Korea's ambitions).

 

[Mr. Tea]

I guess I'm trying to ask the same question I asked before: are the reasons that America is unpopular on the Dissensus boards the same reasons that America is unpopular in the middle east? Are liberal westerners annoyed by the same things as reactionary and ultra-conservative muslims?

Man, some bitch had her nose out in public today, makes my blood boil just thinking about it...

Seriously, I would sincerely hope not, but that's not to say those on the far left (rather than centrist liberals) don't sometimes find themselves inadvertently supporting some of the most illiberal thinkers alive today. And don't give me any of that 'straw man' crap when you have (for example) George Galloway visiting Iraq as one of Saddam's guests of honour, and Ken Livingstone (whom I admire in most other respects) cosying up to al-Qaradawi.

 

[old goriot]

I was thinking about South America as I wrote my last post, actually, but I decided to give the examples I gave to counter your assertion that "95% of the world hates America". While it's obvious that not many people outside the US actively like the country, I'm sure many other countries view it mainly as a useful trading partner, and in some cases as a potential protector (as non-nuclear Japan must be feeling at the moment, given North Korea's ambitions).

Yeah I guess I was overstating the case with 95% hatred. I think if you forced a survey question on if you "generally like" or "generally dislike" the united states and co. Iran would not be much higher than average. Canada would probably be on top of the poll.

The instances of outright hatred I think are specifically correlated with American interventionism. That's what gives Iran's leader his platform, as well as Chavez and Bin Laden.

[edited.. reading too hastily] Even the U.S./Japan protectorate relationship is pretty tenuous. If you read anything by Chalmers Johnson, he talks a lot about how American military installations have caused immense political tensions and that in order to quell them the American leaders eased trade restrictions, effectively plunging a knife in the heart of American manufacturing, particularily the auto and steel sectors.

 

[vimothy]

Seriously, I would sincerely hope not, but that's not to say those on the far left (rather than centrist liberals) don't sometimes find themselves inadvertently supporting some of the most illiberal thinkers alive today. And don't give me any of that 'straw man' crap when you have (for example) George Galloway visiting Iraq as one of Saddam's guests of honour, and Ken Livingstone (whom I admire in other respects) cosying up t al-Qaradawi.

Livingstone is also taking oil from the autocratic rulers of Venezuela.

 

[vimothy]

The instances of outright hatred I think are specifically correlated with American interventionism. That's what gives Iran's leader his platform, as well as Chavez and Bin Laden.

Is that true? I think that is highly dubious, because your politics are not the politics of the ikwhan. Were planes aimed at New York because the mujahideen were annoyed at the hypocrisy of tacit US support for Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, followed by intervention in Kuwait?

Could you be more specific, perhaps?

 

[old goriot]

Is that true? I think that is highly dubious, because your politics are not the politics of the ikwhan. Were planes aimed at New York because the mujahideen were annoyed at the hypocrisy of tacit US support for Hussein during the Iran-Iraq war, followed by intervention in Kuwait?

Could you be more specific, perhaps?

I can be exactly specific. Bin Laden's primary aim and the basis of his early recruiting was to have American military bases removed from Saudi Arabian soil.

 

[DWD]

I'll add a link to this blog because 1. it's really good and 2. I get the impression some people don't realise what a ridiculous propagandist Sy Hersh has become.

Ha! Aren't you the guy who introduced Michael Ledeen into this debate earlier on?

As it happens, I agree with you about Hersh to an extent - I don't think he has a consistent agenda but I do think he's willing to report whatever line best serves his need for a big story. But if you want people to take you seriously, shouldn't you apply the same kind of critical rigour to people you agree with as well as those you don't?

 

[vimothy]

I can be exactly specific. Bin Laden's primary aim and the basis of his early recruiting was to have American military bases removed from Saudi Arabian soil.

I thought that the initial cause was the presence of US military bases in Kuwait following the attempted Iraqi annexation. In any case we are back to the idea that there is no positive programme being put forth by the Islamists and that they are simply reacting to "Western Imperialism". But they (al Qaeda) are irrational mass-murdering bigots, not Said & Chomsky reading relativist lefties. Jihad is obviously undertaken against America because it is there and it is the big, obvious power, and as far as that goes I can agree that jihadist violence is a reaction to America, however the jihad is principally an anti-liberal imperialistic movement, a "fatah" of the house of war, and a continuation of the (supposed) destiny of Islam, until recently abandoned by the umma.

 

[vimothy]

well, i know plenty of muslims who'd disagree with you.

An interesting site:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/archive/index.php?f-20.html

For example:

http://forum.mpacuk.org/archive/index.php?t-81.html

 

[Guybrush]

This thread really is sprawling in all directions at once. One thing I wonder is how useful it is to speak of the jihadists’ supposed ‘anti-Americanism’; maybe they are ‘anti-American’, maybe they are not: what difference does it make? Blanket allegations of ‘anti-Americanism’ just sounds like lazy thinking to me. Polls (I cannot be bothered to find them, will do upon request) show that people in many western countries have equally as negative an attitude towards the U.S. as have people in the Levant.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I think a Palestinian refugee living in exile in Syria, or an Iraqi who's lost his family to American bombing - or even your average Arab-in-the-street who is concerned about things like this happening to his near neighbours, his fellow Muslims in Guantanamo and so on - undeniably has a reason to be anti-American. People (of all religious and ethnic persuasions) in Europe or the US itself who empathise with people suffering in the Middle East as a result of US foreign policy are understandably angry on their behalf. But apart from that, there's a widespread (in the UK and Europe) form of anti-Americanism that has precious little to do with politics; rather, it's just a lazy kind of cultural snobbery directed towards fat, ignorant people in tracksuits who love their God, i.e. your stereotypical mid-Westerner. Or your neurotic, narcissistic New Yorker or your hippy-dippy Californian, for example. This is the kind of anti-Americanism that's got much more to do with the American people (or our perceptions of them, although I'm not saying the view is totally unjustified) than with the country's leadership and role in the world.

 

[Guybrush]

I think a Palestinian refugee living in exile in Syria, or an Iraqi who's lost his family to American bombing - or even your average Arab-in-the-street who is concerned about things like this happening to his near neighbours, his fellow Muslims in Guantanamo and so on - undeniably has a reason to be anti-American. People (of all religious and ethnic persuasions) in Europe or the US itself who empathise with people suffering in the Middle East as a result of US foreign policy are understandably angry on their behalf. But apart from that, there's a widespread (in the UK and Europe) form of anti-Americanism that has precious little to do with politics; rather, it's just a lazy kind of cultural snobbery directed towards fat, ignorant people in tracksuits who believe in God, i.e. your stereotypical mid-Westerner. Or your neurotic, narcissistic New Yorker or your hippy-dippy Californian, for example. This is the kind of anti-Americanism that's got much more to do with the American people (or our perceptions of them, although I'm not saying the view is totally unjustified) than with the country's leadership and role in the world.

That’s a good distinction to make, and I am all too familiar with the second kind (‘ha, ha, did you see all those stupid Americans on “Jaywalking”?’). But my objection still remains: since the reasons people dislike America (or the West) differ so much we would be better off approaching their grievances individually instead of lumping them all together into a neat one-size-fits-all adjective.