War In Iran

Guybrush

Guybrush

Dittohead
You really should download the PDF-file with all the numbers broken down state by state; loads of illuminating data. Britain, for example, is very unfavourably viewed by Brazilians, Argentinians and Mexicans, while being fairly esteemed by Chileans.
 
C

crackerjack

Well-known member
vimothy said:
They don't live in a very peaceful part of the world and they don't have a very peaceful history ... I think that Israel should get more credit.
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Hmm, they cop a disproportionate amount of flak, I agree. But it's hard to see what they deserve credit for, other than maintaining internal democracy.
 
Z

zhao

there are no accidents
crackerjack said:
hard to see what they deserve credit for
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well israel deserves to be acknowledged for their continual violation of human rights, war crimes, racism, systematic destruction of human lives and infrastructure... and the list goes on.

EDIT: before the anti-semitic accusations come flying in, it should be known that my jewish friends almost all feel the same way.
 
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vimothy

vimothy

yurp
crackerjack said:
Hmm, they cop a disproportionate amount of flak, I agree. But it's hard to see what they deserve credit for, other than maintaining internal democracy.
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Not being exterminated by any of the numerous Arab initiated acts of agression directed at them in their short history, doing it with hardly any support (recent US aid excepted) and not a little hostility from their cousins in the West, to say nothing of frequent misrepresentation and lack of interest in the origins of the conflict, surviving in Russia, the Mid East and Europe for long enough to make it to the state of Israel - in fact 20th Century Jewish history is a litany of hardship and struggle (shouldn't be that controversial, IMHO).

Though I agree they do deserve credit for bringing democracy to the region - perhaps an irony not lost on Israeli arabs.
 
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vimothy

vimothy

yurp
zhao said:
well israel deserves to be acknowledged for their continual violation of human rights, war crimes, racism, systematic destruction of human lives and infrastructure... and the list goes on.

EDIT: before the anti-semitic accusations come flying in, it should be known that my jewish friends almost all feel the same way.
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You could replace "Israel" in that sentence l with the name of any other state in the Mid East - and it would make a lot more sense. If you lived in anywhere other than Israel, for instance, you would not even be allowed to vote for your leaders (Iraq excepted). The Israeli government won't chop limbs off as punishment, has a free press, provides an excellent service for local dictators who want to release some pressure in their own countries (Iran a good example), has far and away the greatest level of economic freedom, etc...
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Mr. Tea said:
On the point of Israel, it's worth posting this, which probably deserves a whole thread on its own:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6432133.stm

I mean, an eleven-year-old girl? Fucking hell. Not too hard to see why the rest of the world might not exactly be down with the Israelis, no?
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Well, no one is going to say anything other than that is pretty disgraceful, if true. But it might also be remembered that we are holding Israel to a much higher standard than the terrorists with whom they are fighting. Do you agree with that?
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Mr. Tea said:
On the point of Israel, it's worth posting this, which probably deserves a whole thread on its own:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6432133.stm

I mean, an eleven-year-old girl? Fucking hell. Not too hard to see why the rest of the world might not exactly be down with the Israelis, no?
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And you might also note that if this did happen, it is not a policy choice: "The use of human shields is illegal under Israeli and international law."
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
You could replace "Israel" in that sentence l with the name of any other state in the Mid East - and it would make a lot more sense. If you lived in anywhere other than Israel, for instance, you would not even be allowed to vote for your leaders (Iraq excepted). The Israeli government won't chop limbs off as punishment, has a free press, provides an excellent service for local dictators who want to release some pressure in their own countries (Iran a good example), has far and away the greatest level of economic freedom, etc...
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I think it goes without saying that Israel treats its own people better than does any other state in the Middle East - but that doesn't cancel out their appalling treatment of the Palestinians, does it? Not to mention their recent ultra-heavy-handed invasion of southern Lebanon (and while I of course support Israel's right to defend itself from Hizbullah, that does NOT give it the right to raze entire villages in another sovereign state).

On the point about holding Israel to higher standards than other states - well, that may be true. But Israel holds itself up as a modern, liberal democracy in the Western model, in distinct contrast to many other states in the region which are straight-up theocracies, military dictatorships or absolutist monarchies. It's the same reason people get much more upset over Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib than the (much larger scale) torture and political incarceration that went on under Saddam: America is meant to be one of the 'good guys'.
 
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vimothy

vimothy

yurp
I think it goes without saying that Israel treats its own people better than does any other state in the Middle East - but that doesn't cancel out their appalling treatment of the Palestinians, does it? Not to mention their recent ultra-heavy-handed invasion of southern Lebanon (and while I of course support Israel's right to defend itself from Hizbullah, that does NOT give it the right to raze entire villages in another sovereign state).
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Well, the whole situation with Palestine is one continuous fuck up really. I certainly support the creation of an independent Palestine - though bearing in mind the offer of a Palestinian state was rejected by Arafat, and that the Palestinians currently have an elected governement who's charter is a full on anti-semitic hate-fest, who sponsor human bombs to kill Israeli civilians in night clubs (because they are disgusting places - fuck off and die, basically), bearing in mind that Israel really wants peace and not death (not true of the Hezb, for e.g.), beaing in mind that annexation of land has always followed wars begun by arab states, bearing in mind the systematic poisoning of Palestinian (to say nothing of Arab more generally) youth against Israel and the Jews, etc ...

Then there's the hyperboles that are thrown at Isreal. Israelis are Nazis: probably the most sickening, possibly the most prevelant (though the links between radical arab politics and the NSDAP are well documented; the Mufti of Jerusalem, etc), Israel is an apartheid state, etc ...

Lebanon was a terrible waste, and terrible for a country which is the most resonant with Western values as well. What has happened there is a great shame, but Israel has been in this position before, with the PLO launching attacks from a vaguely sympathetic state and then retreating into no-state actor cover. They have to do something if the Lebanese government will not. It is a pity that this time they were out thought and out fought by Hezbollah, and that they will be in the same situation very soon.

On the point about holding Israel to higher standards than other states - well, that may be true. But Israel holds itself up as a modern, liberal democracy in the Western model, in distinct contrast to many other states in the region which are unashamedly theocratic dictatorships. It's the same reason people get much more upset over Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib than the (much larger scale) torture and political incarceration that went on under Saddam: America is meant to be one of the 'good guys'.
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Yeah, I agree, I just wanted to see if we saw eye to eye. Although, there's more to your US examples than that, and - America is one of the good guys.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Well countries are always going to be blamed for the actions of their governments and armed forces, aren't they? I certainly don't "hate Israelis", or the people of any other country - that would be stupid. It's the actions of governments that draw (or should draw) criticism. However it's not like the Israelis have the excuse that their government was forced on them against their will, as they are a democracy: the government is in power because (a majority of) the people put them there.

I admit that my words were a bit off, though - I should of course have said "Israel", not "the Israelis".

Edit: I'm aware of the peace deal rejected by Arafat, and the suicide bombings and all the rest of it, and I don't condone that either. Terrorism is terrorism, whoever does it (it's just that people tend not to apply that term to the actions of the Israeli armed forces, because they have a proper country so they're "soldiers" rather than "terrorists", etc. etc.). However as I said above, it seems reasonable to hold a wealthy democratic country to higher standards than the guerilla fighters of an opressed, impoverished, stateless people. Doesn't it? Maybe it doesn't, I don't know.
 
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vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Well countries are always going to be blamed for the actions of their governments and armed forces, aren't they? I certainly don't "hate Israelis", or the people of any other country - that would be stupid. It's the actions of governments that draw (or should draw) criticism. However it's not like the Israelis have the excuse that their government was forced on them against their will, as they are a democracy: the government is in power because (a majority of) the people put them there.
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You are quite right that the people of Israel are accountable for the actions of their government, however, the use of human shields is illegal under Israeli law. The actions of the soldiers in your link are an alleged example of troops stepping out of line, acting against thte wishes of the government and therefore the people. It is not the fault of Isreal, the Israeli government or the people of Israel - it is the fault of those directly responsible (unless the IDF are given secret instructions to ignore certain laws and rules of engagement).

Edit: I'm aware of the peace deal rejected by Arafat, and the suicide bombings and all the rest of it, and I don't condone that either. Terrorism is terrorism, whoever does it (it's just that people tend not to apply that term to the actions of the Israeli armed forces, because they have a proper country so they're "soldiers" rather than "terrorists", etc. etc.). However as I said above, it seems reasonable to hold a wealthy democratic country to higher standards than the guerilla fighters of an opressed, impoverished, stateless people. Doesn't it? Maybe it doesn't, I don't know.
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Again, agreed but...

It is the right thing to hold Israel and any Western country to a higher standard, because self-examination and critique are part of what separates us from the terrorists and other loons. If we didn't hold ourselves to a higher standard, perhaps we would never reach one.

Terrorists, though, are very different from soldiers: a terrorist does not wear a uniform, does not fight with rules of engagement under the rules of war, etc.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
Terrorists, though, are very different from soldiers: a terrorist does not wear a uniform, does not fight with rules of engagement under the rules of war, etc.
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...might do something like use an 11-year-old as a human shield?

Come on, you can't have it both ways: if we're holding Israel to a higher standard, then we have to hold its armed forces to a higher standard, even when they're doing something illegal under their country's own law.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Mr. Tea said:
...might do something like use an 11-year-old as a human shield?

Come on, you can't have it both ways: if we're holding Israel to a higher standard, then we have to hold its armed forces to a higher standard, even when they're doing something illegal under their country's own law.
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I think that's actually my point. It's not a state choie to use little girls as human shields, that isn't what soldiers do: this isn't about Israel fucking up but the dudes who committed the crime. It must be because it is a crime. Is it Britain's or the British government's fault when someone shoots a young teenager in Salford? Obviously you can't control people enough to ensure that no one is ever murdered or that crimes are committed. It's the same in this case. Israel can proscribe the use of human shields but it can't guarantee that bad things won't happen. No one can. What Israel can do, and should do, is find out if it happened and put those fuckers in jail if it did.

What else can they do?
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
ignoring your continued wilful ignorance of the history of the palestine/israel conflict, but on specific points-

vimothy said:
unless the IDF are given secret instructions to ignore certain laws and rules of engagement).
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there's plenty of evidence to suggest that such instructions, if not given (the IDF would be pretty stupid to do that) are heavily implied. just do some searching on the IDF's record of shooting/ killing children, women etc.





vimothy said:
Terrorists, though, are very different from soldiers:[...] a terrorist does not fight with rules of engagement under the rules of war, etc.
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nor do the IDF.


remember, israel occupies palestinean land illegally and often treats all palestinians as prisoners or worse
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
vimothy said:
Is it Britain's or the British government's fault when someone shoots a young teenager in Salford?
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surely the comparison should be: would it be the UK gvt's fault if a soldier shoots a young teenager in Salford*?


*for more realism choose belfast.

or to make it ideologically easier for you:

would it be the palistinian gvt's fault if a palistinian policeman shoots a young israeli in the occupied territories?
 
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