War In Iran

vimothy

vimothy

yurp
surely the comparison should be: would it be the UK gvt's fault if a soldier shoots a young teenager in Salford*?


*for more realism choose belfast.
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I don't actually think it makes any difference. Is it against the law? Yes. Have they acted under instruction of the government? No.

The law arrives after the fact.

or to make it ideologically easier for you:

would it be the palistinian gvt's fault if a palistinian policeman shoots a young israeli in the occupied territories?
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What does it have to do with the government if somebody is murdered? Is it a policy choice?
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
vimothy said:
I don't actually think it makes any difference. Is it against the law? Yes. Have they acted under instruction of the government? No... What does it have to do with the government if somebody is murdered? Is it a policy choice?
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'shoot to kill' will be a new expression to you then
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
ignoring your continued wilful ignorance of the history of the palestine/israel conflict, but on specific points-
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ha

there's plenty of evidence to suggest that such instructions, if not given (the IDF would be pretty stupid to do that) are heavily implied. just do some searching on the IDF's record of shooting/ killing children, women etc.
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What, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that secret instructions to fight without rules of engagement and to commit crimes are heavily implied during IDF training? Where is this evidence, please?

nor do the IDF.
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Are you saying that the IDF don't have the rules of engagment which they are also supposed to ignore?

remember, israel occupies palestinean land illegally and often treats all palestinians as prisoners or worse
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I disagree
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
matt b said:
'shoot to kill' will be a new expression to you then
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We are talking about the use of a young girl as a human shield, right?

If murder is a policy choice, as per your NI example, then it's the government's responsibility. I know I'm simplifying, but if the soldiers have acted against the wishes of their superiors and government, then they are responsible.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
I think that's actually my point. It's not a state choie to use little girls as human shields, that isn't what soldiers do: this isn't about Israel fucking up but the dudes who committed the crime. It must be because it is a crime. Is it Britain's or the British government's fault when someone shoots a young teenager in Salford? Obviously you can't control people enough to ensure that no one is ever murdered or that crimes are committed. It's the same in this case. Israel can proscribe the use of human shields but it can't guarantee that bad things won't happen. No one can. What Israel can do, and should do, is find out if it happened and put those fuckers in jail if it did.

What else can they do?
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Fair point. I'm sure they're going to be put on trial for this.
 
Mr. Tea

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
vimothy said:
For those who are interested, the IDF's code of ethics:

http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/mainpage.asp?sl=EN&id=32

"Human Dignity - The IDF and its soldiers are obligated to protect human dignity. Every human being is of value regardless of his or her origin, religion, nationality, gender, status or position."
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Tell that to the guy in the bulldozer demolishing a house full of kids and old people.
This stuff happens, no-ones making it up. Kids as young as three have been shot dead.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
Mr. Tea said:
Tell that to the guy in the bulldozer demolishing a house full of kids and old people.
This stuff happens, no-ones making it up. Kids as young as three have been shot dead.
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I'm not saying that houses aren't demolished or that IDF soldiers didn't use children as human shields. I referred to the crime as alleged because it is, and because, as we've been discussing, using human shields is not an Israeli policy but an individual criminal act. You linked to that alleged individual criminal act and said:

Fucking hell. Not too hard to see why the rest of the world might not exactly be down with the Israelis, no?
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...as though Israel as a collective is responsible for something illegal which may or may not have happened, and that's a good enough reason for people to not be down with 'em.

I'm not saying abuses don't happen, or that the IDF is the cat's pajamas or that Israel has no responsibility for what happens in Palestine. I just thought that it wasn't a great example and that it wasn't a great leap to make: criticism of the soldiers, yes, but to use their actions as justification for the widespread dislike/criticism/whatever of Israel just seemed a bit off.

I posted the link because we were talking about ethics and I wanted to show that it's not simply the case that soldiers just wonder around doing as they please, killing arabs and stealing passes with no instructions on how to behave from further up the chain of command.
 
matt b

matt b

Indexing all opinion
vimothy said:
I'm not saying that houses aren't demolished or that IDF soldiers didn't use children as human shields. I referred to the crime as alleged because it is, and because, as we've been discussing, using human shields is not an Israeli policy but an individual criminal act. You linked to that alleged individual criminal act and said:



...as though Israel as a collective is responsible for something illegal which may or may not have happened, and that's a good enough reason for people to not be down with 'em.

I'm not saying abuses don't happen, or that the IDF is the cat's pajamas or that Israel has no responsibility for what happens in Palestine. I just thought that it wasn't a great example and that it wasn't a great leap to make: criticism of the soldiers, yes, but to use their actions as justification for the widespread dislike/criticism/whatever of Israel just seemed a bit off.

I posted the link because we were talking about ethics and I wanted to show that it's not simply the case that soldiers just wonder around doing as they please, killing arabs and stealing passes with no instructions on how to behave from further up the chain of command.
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no-one is using it as a justification for disliking israel, but rather israeli policy.

your belief that because actions are not sanctioned officially, such behaviours are undertaken by some rogue-soldier element is simply childlike in its naivety- if that's the case the IDF training is woeful, or it has an unnaturally high proportion of criminally minded individuals in it.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
matt b said:
no-one is using it as a justification for disliking israel, but rather israeli policy.

your belief that because actions are not sanctioned officially, such behaviours are undertaken by some rogue-soldier element is simply childlike in its naivety- if that's the case the IDF training is woeful, or it has an unnaturally high proportion of criminally minded individuals in it.
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Mr Tea was, and we were discussing a specific, individual case.
 
vimothy

vimothy

yurp
crackerjack said:
This is it in a nutshell. Anyone have any idea how many members of the IDF have been prosecuted for similar abuses in the OT?
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According to an article on the Breaking the Silence website (it's a bit out of date though):

"According to the army, over the same period [2000 - 2005] it has investigated 131 cases of soldiers misusing firearms, resulting in 18 indictments and seven convictions. As a result of the testimonies received by the Guardian and Breaking the Silence, army prosecutors are looking at a further 17 cases of alleged criminal activity."
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http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/newspapers_e.asp?number=285
 
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