like over the top Dipset stuff, eg?
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Vocal Pop Music -- Do you listen to lyrics?
- Thread starter soundslike1981
- Start date
like over the top Dipset stuff, eg?
Everything's political, to the point where quite often even music that can't be pinned down for homophobia/racism/sexism due to its explicit lyrical content is often homophobic/racist/sexist, and therefore you're usually going to be talking about matters of degree in comparing the relative moral ambiguity of music.
In other words, not saying something homophobic/racist/sexist does not mean you're aren't any of those things. So pop music that is explicitly h/r/s is even more interesting or culturally relevant and deserves to be heard. Often times people like pop while wholly avowing its structural problems w/r/t homophobia/racism/sexism.
Are we talking about the implied structural R/S/H in the MUSIC itself, or in the creator(s) and their culture? Or would you say that the inseparability of these elements is what gives rise to the problem of always SOME degree of R/S/H...?
def. in a slightly different way. there are allowances made for cultural differences in the levels of sensitivity toward homosexual issues between white and black americans, I think. not fair, necessarily, but i think that's why it's considered more "ok."
I think this is even more pronounced with Dancehall in many respects "oh they're from a third world country..." but contrast with the heavy amount of anti-homophobic lobbying in this country from pressure groups and the incremental impact on the lyrical content...
N
nomadologist
Guest
also, hip-hop seems to be more inclusive of female sexuality, somehow. even the sexism is more fun. i think this goes back to cultural differences in general between black and white americans regarding what kind of flirtation is considered appropriate or ok. i've talked to many many white girls about this: a lot of us actually prefer the loud, open way black men will "appreciate" your body, tell you you're attractive, etc. because at least it's honest, and seems to be out of genuine interest and aesthetic appreciation. white men seems to be plagued by guilt for liking women's bodies, so they will often come across as sleazier in their ogling, etc.
also, black men are not as neurotic about female bodies, in my experience (and in many girls.) black men appreciate very realistic female bodies, don't have a problem with voluptuous women. this puts women more at ease. you feel less like you're being judged and more like they just really think you're hot.
also, black men are not as neurotic about female bodies, in my experience (and in many girls.) black men appreciate very realistic female bodies, don't have a problem with voluptuous women. this puts women more at ease. you feel less like you're being judged and more like they just really think you're hot.
I think this is even more pronounced with Dancehall in many respects "oh they're from a third world country..." but contrast with the heavy amount of anti-homophobic lobbying in this country from pressure groups and the incremental impact on the lyrical content...
by "this country" do you mean UK or JA? cause anti-homophobia lobbying is fucked in JA.
N
nomadologist
Guest
Are we talking about the implied structural R/S/H in the MUSIC itself, or in the creator(s) and their culture? Or would you say that the inseparability of these elements is what gives rise to the problem of always SOME degree of R/S/H...?
the inseparability is what makes it difficult to rely on explicit lyrical content in your assessment of a given work's r/s/h
UK obv, cos isn't homosexuality still illegal in JA?
yup yup. well, sodomy is (like in 12 US states till 2004 I think). and so is picking up men.
the inseparability is what makes it difficult to rely on explicit lyrical content in your assessment of a given work's r/s/h
I agree with this, but would say that if a work has heavy and un-problematized R/S/H lyrical content, then it is fairly likely that the structures surrounding it are infested with said prejudice too, and that whilst that doesn't let the more subtly, non-explicit stuff off, I think music with flagrant lyrical content must be seen as somehow worse, except in the respect of being easily identifiable which may over time lessen its potential to persist...?
soundslike1981
Well-known member
I think sexism in lyrics is part of why rock is flagging as an idiom these days. Rock itself was so reliant on flagrantly sexist and misogynistic heteronorms that nowadays, when women make up a large part of the music-buying public and don't want to hear that crap, there's not much to say and the gender performances fall a little flat. No one believes the machismo act, phallogocentric sham anymore. (or fewer people do, at least, thank god)
My young self made an easy connection between hair metal's sexism/materialism and slightly later "rap" (as it was always called). But those elements in contemporary hip-hop don't seem to have slowed down sales/popularity (and I presume it takes a few women buying the records to make them really popular). It's funny--I wonder if popists get in a bind with hair metal, since "authenticity" was obviously well out the window in the minds of hairy boys wearing glitter and leotards waving wads of cash around with women who could be distinguished from them only by their pumped-up tits. . . (but then that's why I've never really understood the anti-rockist argument, as rock seems historically one of the most self-consciously inauthentic, peacock-strutting forms of music; whilst hip-hop has as a founding phrase "the real hip-hop;" and jazz is known for its entrenched purists to whatever phase; and blues is an endless debate about realness; and country music has its adherants to pre-"pop" music; and pop will usually brook no guitars now. . .)
Doesn't contemporary indie rock usually get slagged not for its machismo (never heard the Arctic Monkeys--are they reappealing to rock-as-thick, Oasis-y approach?) but for its utter sexlessness? Isn't "twee" a frequent jab (with weirdly homophobic resonance)? I'm not defending "classic" rock or indie rock, but they both seem a lot less threatening, their paradigms a lot less relevant, than anti-rockists seem to posit. I guess I've assumed waning popularity was due more to musical boringness rather than lyrical content.
N
nomadologist
Guest
Hard to say. That's why I think all texts--pop, rock, metal, whatever--are always already problematic (politically).
N
nomadologist
Guest
Doesn't contemporary indie rock usually get slagged not for its machismo (never heard the Arctic Monkeys--are they reappealing to rock-as-thick, Oasis-y approach?) but for its utter sexlessness? Isn't "twee" a frequent jab (with weirdly homophobic resonance)? I'm not defending "classic" rock or indie rock, but they both seem a lot less threatening, their paradigms a lot less relevant, than anti-rockists seem to posit. I guess I've assumed waning popularity was due more to musical boringness rather than lyrical content.
Interesting point. I think indie is musically boring because it has no libidinal energy running through it. There's definitely a way to make music that is libidinous and sexually charged without being sexist or misogynistic. Indie rock relies on an representation of sexuality that (at least to this woman, but I would guess to a lot of woman) comes across as a little dishonest. There are, no doubt, tons of extremely sensitive, touchy-feely men out there, but the indie pose comes across as a little disingenuous, like a guy who thinks he's more likely to get laid if he plays the "sensitive" role.
Doesn't contemporary indie rock usually get slagged not for its machismo (never heard the Arctic Monkeys--are they reappealing to rock-as-thick, Oasis-y approach?) but for its utter sexlessness? Isn't "twee" a frequent jab (with weirdly homophobic resonance)? I'm not defending "classic" rock or indie rock, but they both seem a lot less threatening, their paradigms a lot less relevant, than anti-rockists seem to posit. I guess I've assumed waning popularity was due more to musical boringness rather than lyrical content.
Ha- more popular than ever in this country it would seem... and it is entirely the familiarity, the comfort of the ingrained white boys-own, hetero-normative club nature of it which makes it THE MOST pernicious of all...
like a guy who thinks he's more likely to get laid if he plays the "sensitive" role.
You are a bit obsessed with this idea tho, are you not?
N
nomadologist
Guest
i am? (i think i've just met a lot of people like that...)
i am?
Well, that may be going a bit far, but its been mentioned a bit. The idea of, say, Chris Martin or that wanker from Snowpatrol (seriously de-libidinizing band names chaps...) secretly being a complete misogynist bastard, whilst giving it all that sensitive nonsense on stage to woo the ladies does seem quite likely...
N
nomadologist
Guest
think about living in a culture like the U.S. where it is by and large still completely unacceptable to not be macho. then you have kids who behave in every other way just like other teenage boys, yet try to capitalize on their sensitivity as evidence entirely in their taste in music (Postal Service, Grizzly Bear, Etc.)
N
nomadologist
Guest
Well, that may be going a bit far, but its been mentioned a bit. The idea of, say, Chris Martin or that wanker from Snowpatrol (seriously de-libidinizing band names chaps...) secretly being a complete misogynist bastard, whilst giving it all that sensitive nonsense on stage to woo the ladies does seem quite likely...
i don't remember mentioning that, but i wouldn't be surprised. i'm thinking more of indepedent label music than Chris Martin/Coldplay level stuff.
here we're bumping against that idea again that it's not just the explicit acts of homophobia/racism/sexism that count, or that exist. i think h/r/s/m are institutionalized to the level where we all, to some degree, participate in them
soundslike1981
Well-known member
Well, that may be going a bit far, but its been mentioned a bit. The idea of, say, Chris Martin or that wanker from Snowpatrol (seriously de-libidinizing band names chaps...) secretly being a complete misogynist bastard, whilst giving it all that sensitive nonsense on stage to woo the ladies does seem quite likely...
I love (well, not really) that the grandaddy of twee bullshit indie himself, whatsisname from Beat Happening and current purveyor or neo-hippie K records, is broadly known as a lech-unto-pederast, going around the States picking up very young indie-groupies.
I tend to figure a lot of men who're genuine/comfortable in their "sensitivity" and not overtly concerned with it one way or the other, are probably voracious-yet-sensitive in the good sense in bed. . . though I may be projecting ; )
Anyone ever had the misfortune of hearing Trembling Blue Stars? Or Cex? Opposite ends of the indie "sensitivity" spectrum, both seeming equally put-on, both of whom almost make me want to discover moderate physical violence. . .
N
nomadologist
Guest
I tend to figure a lot of men who're genuine/comfortable in their "sensitivity" and not overtly concerned with it one way or the other, are probably voracious-yet-sensitive in the good sense in bed. . . though I may be projecting ; )
And believe me, Soundslike, women can tell the difference bewteen the genuinely sensitive man attuned to female needs and the poseur. Teen girls might have a tougher time telling--hence the reliance of men like the guy from Beat Happening groupie-mentality to get his--but in time, they wise up. And find it kind of immature and annoying.