Boycotting Zionism

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Therefore it makes perfect sense to concentrate on the actions of our own governments and our allies. Which is why Western activists, whose governments generally support US military actions focus on American policies, why British activists generally focus on the actions of Britain etc... just as there are activists in Russia protesting against Russian actions against Checnya etc...
Are there (and this isn't an entirely rhetorical question) equal numbers of Islamic activists who focus single mindedly on criticizing political / fundamentalist / militant Islam to the same extent that Chomsky et al do on criticizing Israel and the US? I can appreciate that why they might not get the same amount of publicity over here (although you'd think the government and the media would love them - "look, even their own lot say they're murdering fascists, of course we should be bombing the fuck out of them"), but I can't think of many prominent Islamic figures (or rather, many prominent figures from Islamic backgrounds) who would ignore Israeli atrocities while complaining about their government's tolerance of Hamas. I'd love to be wrong on this.
 

vimothy

yurp
& that's why i bother to pull you up on it tbh, i'm so fed up with your muslim-hatred

your assertion of '10 million dead by Islamic insurgents' is an absolutely typical bit of dishonest hyperbole; attempting to make points to back up your obvious prejudice against muslims with barefaced lies

Why can't you accept that you can criticise Muslims without being motivated by Muslim hatred. (Is all criticism of Israel anti-semitic, then)? Why do you think I hate Muslims? I want to help the Middle East. If I really hated Muslims, I'd be celebrating Muslim extremism and Muslim dictatorships, because they kill so many of their fellow men.

Post more of my typical hyperboles (like typing 10 instead of 1 - then drawing attention to it) if you want.

Out of time on the other (4) argumnents. More later...
 

vimothy

yurp
Indeed its basically pointless to argue, as this isn't really a question of assessing arguments, but rather one of picking sides. Choose your team and fight your corner, might as well be at a football match.

It's really depressing reading things like that. If I wasn't interested in argument, surely I'd be posting this shite at Free Republic or capitalism.org or wherever, rarther than a site where every single other poster is about thirty degrees to the left of me. You could accuse anyone of this. Personally, I've been through it already - read the arguments and decided where I stand.

Hence Chomsky is rubbished at an ontological level-- he simply IS wrong, rather than demonstrating that the argument which was presented was wrong for reasons of incoherent self-contradiction or empirical inaccuracy.

I said I'll come back to this, and I intend to.
 

sufi

lala
no it's you vimothy,
i can criticise muslim leaders with no problem, but i have noticed how you slag off muslims at any opportunity often in a hateful, disingenuous & misrepresentative way.
 
Clearly, the problem with Vimothy is that his racism is ontological: Islam, Arabs, Muslims are inherently evil, are crazed sub-humans hell-bent on destroying all of humanity, including themselves, and as such have no right to exist, but must be collectively punished and, where necessary, ultimately exterminated. Consequently, there is no point in attempting to 'argue' with him on humane or moral grounds (ie that not all Arabs and Muslims are crazed fundamentalist terrorists, that the majority are reasonable and moderate people etc), because the very terms of reference, the whole terms of the 'debate' are constitutively racist, so that by being drawn into it one is unwittingly accepting the 'reasonableness' of Vimothy's racist diatribes.

Zizek summarized this dilemma with respect to Nazi anti-Semiticism: "For example, Nazi anti–Semitic violence was false in the same way. This entire large–scale frenetic activity was fundamentally misdirected in a massive passage l’acte betraying the inability [to come to terms with] the real kernel of the trauma, the social antagonism. What I claim is that anti–Semitic violence was not only factually wrong, in the sense that Jews were not really like that, they were not exploiting Germans, or organizing a universal plot against humanity. It wasn’t only morally wrong when judged against some elementary standards of decency. Of course it’s morally wrong but that doesn’t really hit the mark. If you claim it was factually wrong, in the sense that "Jews are not really like that", because the moment you accept the discussion in these terms, you are lost. Let’s say that in the 1930’s you try to answer a Nazi by claiming "Wait a minute, you are exaggerating." If you check it out the truth will of course be somewhere in the middle. Of course there were some Jews who were seducing German girls, why not? Of course there were some Jews whose influence in media was very strong. That’s not the point. We get a cue here from one of my favorite dictums of Lacan. Let’s say that you have a wife who sleeps with other men and you are pathologically jealous. Even if your jealousy is grounded in fact it’s still a pathology. Why? Because, even if what the Nazis claimed about Jews was up to a point true, anti–Semitism was formally wrong, in the same sense that in psychoanalysis a symptomatic action is wrong. It is wrong because it served to replace or repress another true trauma, as something that inherently functions as a displacement, an act of displacement, as something to be interpreted. It’s not enough to say anti–Semitism is factually wrong, it’s morally wrong, the true enigma is ,why did the Nazis need the figure of the Jew for their ideology to function? Why is it that if you take away their figure of the Jew their whole edifice disintegrates?"

The question that arises here is why in order for Vimothy to retain his 'balance' does he desperately need to construct such racist fantasies about Arabs, about Muslims, about Islam. The post-9/11 paranoia in the West characteristic of dogmatists like Vimothy is a direct result of the misdirected attempt to reconstitute their imperialist neo-liberal universe so that they can function unfettered once again, with disasterous consequences.

"If you take from the paranoiac his paranoiac symptom, it’s the end of the world for him."
 

dHarry

Well-known member
Clearly, the problem with Vimothy is that his racism is ontological: Islam, Arabs, Muslims are inherently evil, are crazed sub-humans hell-bent on destroying all of humanity, including themselves, and as such have no right to exist, but must be collectively punished and, where necessary, ultimately exterminated.
Where did Vimothy say, or imply, anything like this?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Clearly, the problem with Vimothy is that ....

.......disasterous consequences.

"If you take from the paranoiac his paranoiac symptom, it’s the end of the world for him."
That whole post is just total bollocks straight out of the hundredmilliongenerator. Ontological racism, Zizek, neo-liberal, Lacan, displacement etc etc Rather than argue with someone you disagree with why not just declare them completely beyond the pale? It's completely intellectually empty and it's a perfect example of what Gek just termed "picking sides". Once you've picked that side the other side is automatically wrong, in fact so wrong that is dangerous to even attempt to dissuade them as that kind of acknowledgement of their views might somehow encourage them. It's also of course just what was done to the proposed boycott.
 
That whole post is just total bollocks straight out of the hundredmilliongenerator. Ontological racism, Zizek, neo-liberal, Lacan, displacement etc etc Rather than argue with someone you disagree with why not just declare them completely beyond the pale? It's completely intellectually empty and it's a perfect example of what Gek just termed "picking sides". Once you've picked that side the other side is automatically wrong, in fact so wrong that is dangerous to even attempt to dissuade them as that kind of acknowledgement of their views might somehow encourage them. It's also of course just what was done to the proposed boycott.

Not at all. Gek was also arguing that Vimothy's dismissal of Chomsky was ontologically based, and I am arguing that this also applies to his racism, as comprehensively evident in all his posts on this and many other threads. Picking sides is precisely what you are doing here, abandoning all argument, and descending into knee-jerk anti-intellectual verbal abuse ("total bollocks" etc). And on the contrary, your post is 'intellectually empty', failing even to begin to engage with the basis of the arguments presented in the previous post (ie the basis of Vimothy's racism).
 
I don't think Vimothy hates Muslims per se, rather that a prejudicially anti-Muslim line emerges as a residue from his worship of hegemonic power in its current abiding form, with all that entails.

Except that it isn't a 'residue', as though it were some unavoidable, involuntary 'collateral damage': it is constitutive of that hegemonic power, the racist construction of the Muslim Other legitimizing that power ...
 
Who not? If it's just a matter of one thread, then the onus is on you to back up your charge.


This is so ridiculous that you're coming off as an apologist for Vimothy's racism. What charge? What are you talking about? What 'onus'? Evidence of his racism is everywhere on his Dissensus posts. You're actively choosing to disavow it.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
This is so ridiculous that you're coming off as an apologist for Vimothy's racism. What charge?

This charge.

Clearly, the problem with Vimothy is that his racism is ontological: Islam, Arabs, Muslims are inherently evil, are crazed sub-humans hell-bent on destroying all of humanity, including themselves, and as such have no right to exist, but must be collectively punished and, where necessary, ultimately exterminated.

Evidence of his racism is everywhere on his Dissensus posts.

So you'll have no problem picking out examples to back up your charge of racism...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
For the benefit on anyone here busy sticking their fingers in their ears and chanting "LA LA LA LA VIMOTHY IS A RACIST", what he's been trying to say for god-knows-how-long is that if, as accused, he derived some sort of sick thrill from seeing Muslims killed, oppressed, tortured or otherwise abused (for what reason, exactly? perhaps he got served a REALLY bad kebab once...) he'd actively support all sorts of governments, leaders, imams, Ayatollahs and generals throughout the Islamic world.

Of course, Israel is guilty of appalling crimes too, and recent American meddling in the middle east has had results that are all too plain to see, and I think Vimothy lets both of these countries off far too lightly. But simply calling him racist because he draws attention to some of the terrible things done by some Muslims (never mind the religion or ethnicity of their victims) is ridiculous.
 
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gek-opel

entered apprentice
Except that it isn't a 'residue', as though it were some unavoidable, involuntary 'collateral damage': it is constitutive of that hegemonic power, the racist construction of the Muslim Other legitimizing that power ...

In some respects I agree with you HMLT, the Muslim as other, as enemy as keystone holding the whole western liberal/capitalistic project in place is accurate (replacing of course the figure of the Soviet Union)... however it is in other senses unavoidable once one is drawn into the worship of power- of course it would then be up to the individual in question to decide whether such a "package" was for them, and Vim obviously decided long ago so. And to that extent although I think he is not an out-and-out racist, he is one who endlessly seeks to legitimise systems and beliefs which are themselves to a certain extent constituted by the racial construct. It is a subtle and pervasive form of prejudice, (more subtle than him ever saying in so many words that Muslims are, as you put it "evil, are crazed sub-humans hell-bent on destroying all of humanity"), which is inextricably bound together with the rest of his world view.
 
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So you'll have no problem picking out examples to back up your charge of racism...

What is this NONSENSE about a 'charge'? Vimothy is a racist, as clear as the light of day. That you can't even see this from his posts here is deeply disturbing. And as for 'examples', they are staring straight at you. So NO. Absolutely NOT: it is for YOU to educate yourself about what racism actually is, because clearly, you, dharry, and idlerich have fallen into EXACTLY the trap that Vimothy wants you in: defending his racist diatribes.
 

crackerjack

Well-known member
What is this NONSENSE about a 'charge'? Vimothy is a racist, as clear as the light of day. That you can't even see this from his posts here is deeply disturbing. And as for 'examples', they are staring straight at you. So NO. Absolutely NOT: it is for YOU to educate yourself about what racism actually is, because clearly, you, dharry, and idlerich have fallen into EXACTLY the trap that Vimothy wants you in: defending his racist diatribes.

I don't doubt for one minute that you believe what you say, and are not just an idiot who has backed himself into a corner and is now trying to fight his way out with toxic rhetoric and CAPITAL LETTERS.

But it simply ain't good enough to repeat that Vim is a racist because you say so, and it's up to me to work out why. Come on, normally you like the part where you pick bits out. And fwiw I don't defend his diatribes, racist or otherwise. Vim's views on the ME, as with most things, are dangeroulsy one-sided and simplistic, But that doesn't make him a racist.

Edit: And if there's any falling into traps round here, it's you doing the tumbling. You could've run with Vim's ignorance of the facts in Sudan, instead you've just come in screaming.
 
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