'you are what you own' - how rap just reinforces the status quo

[Mr. Tea]

I would agree with you that it's tiresome and not at all helpful when people lay every possible social ill at the door of capitalism, often in the process totally exculpating people who've chosen to persue crime as a career path. I agree that in a wealthy culture with a welfare state it is a lack of respect for others, rather than economic necessity, that causes people to turn to crime - but people generally turn out that way because of their upbringing, which they have no more control over than their economic situation (as children). You can no more blame a kid for having a deadbeat or absent dad, a stressed and overworked (or, conversely, unemployed and hopeless) mum and tearaways for school-mates or older siblings than for living in a run-down estate because all the decent housing is unaffordable.

Edit: this bit really belongs in the Capitalism thread...

Aaaanyway, what's more interesting here I think is your equation of capitalism with a fairer, enlightened and more generally more humane society. Sure, early capitalism started to emerge in Renaissance and Enlightenment Europe, but consider how long it took from that time, and all the various social phases that Western culture went through - religious genocide, the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the agricultural and industrial revolutions, imperialist expansion - before we finally arrived, in the 20th century, at universal suffrage, the universal declaration of human rights, the welfare state and modern, liberal society (via a couple of World Wars). So while I'd agree that these good things have come about as part of a whole range of cultural changes, including the huge increase in wealth and resource availability that is part and parcel of capitalism and the technological advances that facilitated, and were facilitated by, capitalism, I'd like to point out that massive time lag even between the emergence of modern capitalism (early 19th century, more or less) and the life of wealth, leisure and freedom most people in the developed world enjoy. I'm not sure it's really possible to say that India and Bangladesh are in an 'equivalent' stage of industrial and economic development to any particular point in Britain's past, for example, but I think it's a bit shitty to tell third-world textile workers who work all hours in horrific conditions just to stay alive not to worry as life will be much better for their grandchildren.

 

[slackk]

To clarify, I'm not against capitalism at all; it's more the dangerous (to me) levels of consumerism that really do influence a lot of people that i worry about and referred sloppily to earlier.

 

[Mr. Tea]

To clarify, I'm not against capitalism at all; it's more the dangerous (to me) levels of consumerism that really do influence a lot of people that i worry about and referred sloppily to earlier.

Yeah, sorry, the 'you' in my last post is the person I was arguing with in another thread.
I really ought to log off and go home now!

 

[Gavin]

Because, in Britain at least - and I suspect in the US as well - it's overwhelmingly (or at least, disproportionately) black inner-city kids who get involved in serious gang violence, and the music they listen to is overwhelmingly hip-hop and its various derivative forms.

And the food they eat is overwhelmingly McDonalds and the shoes they wear overwhelmingly Nikes.... what exactly is your point?

In the U.S. at least, it's overwhelmingly the poor who get involved in "serious" crime, although black inner-city kids are far more likely to end up in prison. Depending on where they're from and who they are, they could listen to outlaw country, norteno, commercial metal, rap or any number of musical styles disproportionately consumed by the working and underclasses.

o while I'd agree that these good things have come about as part of a whole range of cultural changes, including the huge increase in wealth and resource availability that is part and parcel of capitalism and the technological advances that facilitated, and were facilitated by, capitalism,

You forgot colonialism and imperialism, the chief reason for the huge increase in wealth and resource availability. Those resources came from somewhere, and they came nice and cheap, at gunpoint.

Before capitalism you had the feudal system with it's aristocracy, wouldnt want such a system. They tried socialism, that was no success either.

See "limited horizons of the possible" in the "what besides capitalism" thread, this is exactly what is meant. The shrill hysteria over the loss of "personal responsibility" among dark others (funny, did anyone "take responsibility" for 19th Century imperialism or other "serious gang violence" by the ruling classes?) culminating extremely lazy exculpation of capitalism because "we done tried everything else."

When you really are about to starve crime might be your only option, but in western society Crime is a choice of lazy, greedy people with no respect for others.

This impassioned defense of capitalism against black inner city children is quite interesting, since this thread began by pointing out how ludicrous it is to blame, as the linked editorial does, crass commercialism on rap. Polz, do you agree with this point, or should we lay the blame at the feet of the lazy greedy disrespectful black people?

 

[Tactics]

*stand up to applaud*

Hip hop video culture is merely a garish and cartoony amped up version of everything else, the real problem, the grotesque bleeding great fuck off pale pachyderm squatting in the room is consumer capitalism, and what the lusts and drives it creates do. For some people it might mean working ridiculous hours to own a flat screen hi-def TV, for others slinging drugs for ice. The interesting strategy would probably seek to exploit the entrepreneurial spirit of young Hip Hop influenced youths, to harness it to something other than the drug markets.

just what I wanted to type. this is why rap is good in many ways because it acts (or has always acted) as a mirror of society however distorted. you may not like the reflection but you can't blame the mirror for that

The junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to his product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise. He degrades and simplifies the client. He pays his staff in junk.

I know this is good but can someone break this down for man?

art mirrors life, and historically artists rarely challenged the existig power structure. that was the point with my Mozart comment. he certainly went with the flow in terms of aristocratic power and hierarchy of his day, and probably did his share of flaunting wealth and popularity as well.

in some way rap is the current embodiment of a form of social commentary that has always existed. its the perfect music for NOW and it's no coinkidink that its gonna be the musical blueprint for many more music for at least two more decades (I'm predicting - can you see lol? )

i was referring to the capitalist values in the fifties, but also before that time

maybe i was a bit generalizing, but i was geting a bit tired of all this "it's the fault of capitalism" stuff. without capitalism you all probably wouldn't have had the time and/or money to sit behind your computer and post on an intenet forum. Before capitalism you had the feudal system with it's aristocracy, wouldnt want such a system. They tried socialism, that was no success either.

When you really are about to starve crime might be your only option, but in western society Crime is a choice of lazy, greedy people with no respect for others. (partly) Solutions may be found in education or good parenting, not in a change of economic system.

LOL - I would really like to see what you would do when pressed up against the wall or pinned in a corner vs. opposing forces whether real or in your head

joker

 

[Tactics]

good for you...but for some people

you wanna know what i did (a couple of times). I RAN. yes, but that's not an option anymore, because everybody has to be a HARD MAN, and when somebody doesnt show RESPECT, you have to RETALIATE

im glad i was a coward back then.

there is NOWHERE to run...and don't say there always is 'cos if you ain't really been there then you don't know - you get me? I ain't tryna be rude but...experience counts for a lot in these things

if you have been in situations like that then I'm surprised at your generalised responses

people of the culture reflect the general culture which envelope them. these societies expect people to be hard and not back down - international wars are started in very much the same way. it's all micro and macrocosm which is why most times rap (including a lot of commercial s***) is so spot on EVEN if the artists themselves don't realise the sub-points they make. for example certain rappers reflect specific elements of society but with just a lot of hyperbole and aggrandisement (bad spelling) on top

humans are extremely easy to influence given the right conditions. look around man

 

[Mr. Tea]

And the food they eat is overwhelmingly McDonalds and the shoes they wear overwhelmingly Nikes.... what exactly is your point?

My point, which I'd have thought was pretty obvious, was that there is a correlation between who listens to this music and who gets involved in gang culture. I doubt very much that one is the exclusive cause of the other - clearly, not everyone who listens to gangsta rap is a gangsta, by a long way - but I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that people who make music that disproportionately obsesses over guns and violence are merely dispasisonately describing the realities of daily life as they see it and not, in some sense, having an active influence on it. This could perhaps be seen as the tip of the iceberg that is the wider ultra-consumerist culture, as was pointed out at the start of this thread.

You forgot colonialism and imperialism, the chief reason for the huge increase in wealth and resource availability. Those resources came from somewhere, and they came nice and cheap, at gunpoint.

I did? From where I'm sitting, it looks as if my previous sentence was

...religious genocide, the trans-Atlantic slave trade, the agricultural and industrial revolutions, imperialist expansion...

See "limited horizons of the possible" in the "what besides capitalism" thread, this is exactly what is meant. The shrill hysteria over the loss of "personal responsibility" among dark others...

Yup, you got me there. I admit it, I like totally hate black people!

or should we lay the blame at the feet of the lazy greedy disrespectful black people?

I think there's a complex of reasons as to why we are seeing what we are seeing, but that the crux of it comes down to an ugly marriage of unfettered capitalist consumerism and an excessively permissive culture that has had the effect of robbing people of their personal responsibility. In all seriousness, I'm actually not blaming the people involved in crime, antisocial behaviour, chronic benefits dependency and so on, when you really get down to it: I'm blaming government policies that have encouraged that behaviour.

 

[Slothrop]

but I think it's a bit disingenuous to claim that people who make music that disproportionately obsesses over guns and violence are merely dispasisonately describing the realities of daily life as they see it and not, in some sense, having an active influence on it

You're forgetting that poor people are all mindless sheep and it's only middle class liberals who are capable of stepping back, seeing the bigger picture, and commenting critically on it...

 

[vimothy]

When you really are about to starve crime might be your only option, but in western society Crime is a choice of lazy, greedy people with no respect for others. (partly) Solutions may be found in education or good parenting, not in a change of economic system.

Yes - that's two whole posts I agree with on Dissensus in one day! You're slipping, people...

 

[vimothy]

In all seriousness, I'm actually not blaming the people involved in crime, antisocial behaviour, chronic benefits dependency and so on, when you really get down to it: I'm blaming government policies that have encouraged that behaviour.

But surely you should also blame culture.

 

[Mr. Tea]

But surely you should also blame culture.

I do, to an extent. But government does not pass laws that legislate culture.

 

[vimothy]

I do, to an extent. But government does not pass laws that legislate culture.

They do pass laws that reflect it, though.

 

[rockypoppy2]

But surely you should also blame culture.

the culture is not their culture. its not exclusively and inherrently them, culture gets formed/shaped by lots of influences. we are all responsible in part for our culture - as is stuff like weather, natural disasters etc...

and even if you were to designate hip hop culture as being the culture of gangsters (which is not where it started at all), then what about the western worlds own war mongering and isolationalist culture which promotes nationalism and all out war as a way of dealing with differences. not much of a role model there.

 

[vimothy]

the culture is not their culture. its not exclusively and inherrently them, culture gets formed/shaped by lots of influences. we are all responsible in part for our culture - as is stuff like weather, natural disasters etc...

Surely their culture is their culture? (Whoever they are).

and even if you were to designate hip hop culture as being the culture of gangsters (which is not where it started at all)

It's either nature or nurture, isn't it? Either there are genetic reasons or there are cultural (inc. socio-economic) reasons. Obviously, the first explanation is not an explanation at all, so that only leaves the second.

then what about the western worlds own war mongering and isolationalist culture which promotes nationalism and all out war as a way of dealing with differences. not much of a role model there.

Are war and nationalism inherently western? How come it's only specific groups of people in the west who have been affected by this jahilya culture?

 

[elgato]

whats the point that you're arguing?

 

[vimothy]

whats the point that you're arguing?

Of course culture has an effect!

 

[rockypoppy2]

Surely their culture is their culture? (Whoever they are).

yes, but their also culture takes influence from things we do as well as what they do(whoever they and we are) and things we both share in common - so to blame the culture doesnt really help much since we are all responsible for each other's cultures - especially in this easily accessible society we live in today

Are war and nationalism inherently western? How come it's only specific groups of people in the west who have been affected by this jahilya culture?

no, i was mainly referring to some of the things that "hip hop culture" might have arisen from.

 

[elgato]

Of course culture has an effect!

is anyone denying that? the discussion rather seems to be about where 'blame' should lie (i.e. which factors are dominant, or which began the overall process) and trying to disentangle the factors which do form behaviour

 

[vimothy]

yes, but their also culture takes influence from things we do as well as what they do(whoever they and we are) and things we both share in common - so to blame the culture doesnt really help much since we are all responsible for each other's cultures - especially in this easily accessible society we live in today.

Well, naturally. But it's still important to realise that "gangsterism" and high crime within certain sectionis of society isn't a comment on deprivation or poverty, but a reflection of a culture that normalises and justifies these behaviours. And, yes, it's our culture too.

 

[rockypoppy2]

Well, naturally. But it's still important to realise that "gangsterism" and high crime within certain sectionis of society isn't a comment on deprivation or poverty, but a reflection of a culture that normalises and justifies these behaviours. And, yes, it's our culture too.

im not so sure about that, i definately think its a matter of both, deprivation/poverty would be some of the root causes of crime whilst the laid back apologetic element would have enabled this gangsterism to grow unchallenged.

for what its worth i dont think that all crime arises out of deprivation and poverty - but i do think the inequality which causes deprivation and poverty must contribute a lot to peoples state of mind to get into it in the first place. its also worth noting that when people get really poor, i mean really poor, then even crime is not an option for them, and any crime that is is fairly petty.