'you are what you own' - how rap just reinforces the status quo

[nomadologist]

...unless you get actually shot or stabbed, then it probably seems slightly less ludicrous.

yeah, want me to start with the news stories about kids killing kids in the US? I know all about the shock and horror

 

[rockypoppy2]

Do you really think that in the UK, hip-hop is *causing* this violence? Do you really think that 11-year-olds getting killed/killing is simply a matter of pop culture gaining influence?

The jury's still out on that in the U.S. In my opinion, it's not that simple, and I think you were right when you pointed out that most kids have no parental guidance in general anymore.

No! quite categorically - really, theres about 6 running threads on this now, all over this forum

 

[Mr. Tea]

however that doesnt mean it should be trivialised for the precise reasons of the horrors of LA you talk of. nobody wants a descent into that - so thats why its worth talkign about it, seeing what we can do - to see if we can prevent having more race riots (brixton/bradford) and not getting hysterical over hoodies, no sensible people are doing this.

Exactly - failing to take the problem serious now is the best thing we could possibly do if we want to see Britain get as bad as America.

 

[vimothy]

Do you really think that in the UK, hip-hop is *causing* this violence? Do you really think that 11-year-olds getting killed/killing is simply a matter of pop culture gaining influence?

No - I think there are a myriad of cultural influences "causing" the teen/young person-type violence today, including but not limited to hip-hop, by any means.

 

[nomadologist]

nomadologist, the problem is in relative infancy in britain thanks to our much stricter gun laws, fairly well integrated (dare i say less racist) society, and that poverty in britain isnt a patch on what poverty can mean over in america. however that doesnt mean it should be trivialised for the precise reasons of the horrors of LA you talk of. nobody wants a descent into that - so thats why its worth talkign about it, seeing what we can do - to see if we can prevent having more race riots (brixton/bradford) and not getting hysterical over hoodies, no sensible people are doing this.

I understand. I wasn't trying to trivialize it. But you do understand that in light of everything that has happened here in terms of gang violence, it seems a little silly when people do too much hand-wringing over the very superficial aspects of "gang culture" (like hoodies) and miss the underlying problems (usually poverty) that are all too often the real reason gang violence erupts.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I understand. I wasn't trying to trivialize it. But you do understand that in light of everything that has happened here in terms of gang violence, it seems a little silly when people do too much hand-wringing over the very superficial aspects of "gang culture" (like hoodies) and miss the underlying problems (usually poverty) that are all too often the real reason gang violence erupts.

Here we go again...
...why is it, then, that while poverty in Britain is falling, gang violence is rising?

 

[nomadologist]

oh and the majority of crimes being committed here (gangs) isnt "high" crime - its not stealing diamonds, robbing banks, defrauding pension funds... its shotting weed/crack/coke/brown on the corner + street muggings + fights for most, for those higher up it may be dealing out of a flat - running a crack house, and slightly higher still it might be dealing wholesale. the people really raking it in from drugs are few and far between. the reluctant gangsters report puts the average wage of a shotter at max 25000pounds a year assuming 300-500 pounds per week income, untaxed (obviously). put that way its a little less convincing to say that people get into the drug game to emulate hip hop tv videos, most probably get into it for only a decent wage.

this is one thing that i think is different over here. there are definitely lots of people making so much money from being high on the supply chain for different drugs that violence tends to erupt much easier. wherever there's that much money at stake, you can expect people to guard it even if it comes to murder

 

[nomadologist]

Here we go again...
...why is it, then, that while poverty in Britain is falling, gang violence is rising?

Is it?

Here it's definitely only impoverished people who end up in serious gangs. There are some kids who come from middle class backgrounds who shoot other kids or act out in violence, but they're usually not in "gangs" of any sort.

 

[rockypoppy2]

I understand. I wasn't trying to trivialize it. But you do understand that in light of everything that has happened here in terms of gang violence, it seems a little silly when people do too much hand-wringing over the very superficial aspects of "gang culture" (like hoodies) and miss the underlying problems (usually poverty) that are all too often the real reason gang violence erupts.

yeah i'd agree with that, thats not to say culture has no influence though, which is what we were arguing before.

 

[nomadologist]

Here we go again...
...why is it, then, that while poverty in Britain is falling, gang violence is rising?

So do you think middle class kids in the UK are (as I said before) MIMICKING the violent behavior of impoverished gang members as they encounter them through hip-hop, etc.?

 

[nomadologist]

Just because poverty in general may be on the decline doesn't mean that the problems that are a result of poverty can't exist in the remaining impoverished population, either.

 

[Mr. Tea]

So do you think middle class kids in the UK are (as I said before) MIMICKING the violent behavior of impoverished gang members as they encounter them through hip-hop, etc.?

No, I'd say middle-class kids are for the most part not getting involved in gang culture at all.

 

[vimothy]

Sod this for a game of soldiers

 

[nomadologist]

yeah i'd agree with that, thats not to say culture has no influence though, which is what we were arguing before.

I really just can't get a read on what's happening the U.K. that's good enough to form an opinion based on it.

Mostly because I don't know if this "gang" activity is a proper cultural parallel to what gang culture is here. The incidents seem more isolated and not as racially motivated.

 

[nomadologist]

No, I'd say middle-class kids are for the most part not getting involved in gang culture at all.

So who is then? If it's a problem unique to impoverished or working class kids, then why is it hard to believe poverty could have something to do with gang activity?

It clearly does in the U.S.

 

[rockypoppy2]

im not sure poverty declining. just because the minimum wage is going up, and cost of goods are generally cheaper - charges for services are going through the roof, so what does this mean in real terms for poverty in britain?

 

[nomadologist]

im not sure poverty declining. just because the minimum wage is going up, and cost of goods are generally cheaper - charges for services are going through the roof, so what does this mean in real terms for poverty in britain?

I would be very surprised to see any sort of real statistical indication that poverty was on the decline in the UK as well...

 

[Mr. Tea]

No, people really are getting richer. Apart from people who are actually homeless (and probably also pensioners, who presumably aren't committing much in the way of gang-related crime) even the poorest people, i.e. those on benefits and in min-wage jobs, are better off now than they were 10 years ago. There actually is a minimum wage now, for one thing.

An important factor here is that rich people are getting richer faster than the poor people are, and the really crucial result of this is the stupendous inflation of the housing market, which tends to have the effect of polarizing towns and cities into 'good' and 'bad' neighbourhoods.

Nomad, you might like to know that class in Britain is much less rigidly tied to how much money have than it is (or seems to me to be) in America.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I would be very surprised to see any sort of real statistical indication that poverty was on the decline in the UK as well...

Glad to oblige:
http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pr.../archives/2005/John_Hills_NewLabourReport.htm
(The LSE is Britain's, and one of the world's, most prestigious economics academies)

 

[IdleRich]

"So do you think middle class kids in the UK are (as I said before) MIMICKING the violent behavior of impoverished gang members as they encounter them through hip-hop, etc.?"

No, before you said MIMING, that means pretending, mimicking means copying. When you mime something people don't get killed, if you had said mimicking it wouldn't have been so offensive.

"I really just can't get a read on what's happening the U.K. that's good enough to form an opinion based on it."

So we can see.