sing_minimal
Well-known member
haha yeah, christ..that's embarassing..laibach are a joke nowdays..at least they're the most well known band out of this shitholem but that's about it. except for their first record which was pretty ace ofcourse.
virtues of dj vs. producing
- Thread starter zhao
- Start date
hmmm i don't think i know the first one. but i quite like / liked a lot of their stuff... NOVA AKROPOLA was pretty hard hitting. Mcbeth was beautiful! their remake of the Beatles album had nice moments (female accapella of Across the Universe). even their metal phase and recent techno-y stuff is kinda cool in a cartoon kinda way.
maybe Zizek is the new Laibach... (i don't know what that means)
sing_minimal
Well-known member
first one isn't really first one as it was released pretty late; http://www.discogs.com/release/266034
music was much like early einstuerzende neubauten or even throbing gristle..i don't like much anything they've dones after that..they're trying to be intelectual over nothing imo which i don't like one bit + music doesn't do much for me..well, that tanz mit laibach was fun i guess, though im not sure whether it was meant to be fun hah
as for zizek..at least he's fun..and i like his thoughts on movies a lot!
notice how this topic suddenly took odd course? : )
(im sorry for that)
music was much like early einstuerzende neubauten or even throbing gristle..i don't like much anything they've dones after that..they're trying to be intelectual over nothing imo which i don't like one bit + music doesn't do much for me..well, that tanz mit laibach was fun i guess, though im not sure whether it was meant to be fun hah
as for zizek..at least he's fun..and i like his thoughts on movies a lot!
notice how this topic suddenly took odd course? : )
(im sorry for that)
sing_minimal
Well-known member
i don't like neither..at least rammstein aren't trying to be something they're not.
as for the statement..it was silly..almost as if they want to cash in on rammstein popularity.
i don't belive what they're doing nowdays..they played when audi presented their new car model??..
as for the statement..it was silly..almost as if they want to cash in on rammstein popularity.
i don't belive what they're doing nowdays..they played when audi presented their new car model??..
bassnation
the abyss
i think an interesting question is whether a dj is better for being a producer.
i can think of examples both ways, both positive and negative. sometimes you get djs who are great (or used to be) like grooverider or carl cox whos productions frankly sucked the big one.
you also get producers like carl craig who personally i think is an appalling dj (too much fiddly jazzwank) but obviously a genius producer.
on the positive side, love djs who produce solely to have their own sound, who end up playing mostly their own productions, like dj funk for instance.
what does everyone else think?
i can think of examples both ways, both positive and negative. sometimes you get djs who are great (or used to be) like grooverider or carl cox whos productions frankly sucked the big one.
you also get producers like carl craig who personally i think is an appalling dj (too much fiddly jazzwank) but obviously a genius producer.
on the positive side, love djs who produce solely to have their own sound, who end up playing mostly their own productions, like dj funk for instance.
what does everyone else think?
sing_minimal
Well-known member
personally i don't want them to dj their own stuff (unless they're jeff mills hehe)..i don't really get this club scene - techno/house..specially this new thing..it's like listening to the same track all night long, no fun in that. also i don't care about ones technique, i just mind the selection. and ofcourse it depends on the context..usually djing is to make people dance and in that context i like to hear dance music. aphex dance music. he does best dance sets by far : )
bassnation
the abyss
yeah, but dj funk.... bet you've never heard that. the ones that produce to dj, rather than the other way round are by far the best as they are unique. surely thats the best selection of all.fuck jeff mills, he was washed up and too cracked out years ago.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Hahaha, really? How very socialistic.
Rammstein's music is pretty much middle-of-the-road metal with a dance beat and some gay disco keyboards, but by all accounts their live shows are an absolute hoot. Bicep-bulging homoerotica with S&M overtones, campy operatics, extravagant pyrotechnics and flirtation with fascist imagery - what's not to like?
sing_minimal
Well-known member
dunno dj funk..however i highly disagree on mills : )
just check out the exhibitionist dvd! sublime stuff : )
just check out the exhibitionist dvd! sublime stuff : )
I do both. They are quite different things with the common link being "taste". Instinctively knowing what sounds good is the most important and virtually impossible to learn skill in both things. The other skills you need to learn are quite different, but learning to mix records is clearly less intensive than learning to play bass like stanley clarke or learning to cut up breaks like bizzy b.....
I think both are worthy of admiration when done well because they both have the same unlearnable core ability at the root (knowing what works).
But making music that is good takes a LOT more skill/practise/commitment than digging for good records and playing them out.
i would answer that van gogh was a lot more talented than any gallery owner ever, and in general that creators deserve more praise than purveyors.
i don't think gallery curators work particularly hard compared to, say, someone who practises an instrument 7 hours a day but anyway the gallery analogy is a bit of a red herring.
i disagree, it's possible to work in many styles, and even people who only release one style still LISTEN to other things. i conjecture that anyone who makes music worth a damn is a bit eclectic.
and you could just as easily say: being a DJ means you have to immerse yourself in one style... you won't get anywhere playing in hiphop clubs if you drop the odd hardhouse record etc.
of course you CAN be an eclectic DJ, like you are and I am, equally you CAN be an eclectic musician and/or producer. it's a choice.
doesn't have to stop you. but yes, time is limited and we all choose what seems most pressing. i hope you enjoy your choice. but don't let the fact that you like lots of stuff stop you from devoting a little time to expressing yourself musically if it interests you, you might enjoy it!
nonsense. it is important, but definitely not AS or MORE important.
simply put, without the producer, the selector has nothing to select from.
this is nonsense too, you could just as easily turn it around and say musicians give of their innermost selves and share with the world their beautiful music, DJs play other people's music and try and get the glory. (compare, say, Ian Curtis and DJ Tiesto)
the truth of course is a bit of both and somewhere inbetween.
I get the feeling you are trying to justify to yourself the choice to DJ and not produce, but there should be no need for such justification. Making music is indisputably more difficult than DJing but it doesn't mean DJing it not worth doing. just do what you want and enjoy it.
I think both are worthy of admiration when done well because they both have the same unlearnable core ability at the root (knowing what works).
But making music that is good takes a LOT more skill/practise/commitment than digging for good records and playing them out.
i would answer that van gogh was a lot more talented than any gallery owner ever, and in general that creators deserve more praise than purveyors.
i don't think gallery curators work particularly hard compared to, say, someone who practises an instrument 7 hours a day but anyway the gallery analogy is a bit of a red herring.
i disagree, it's possible to work in many styles, and even people who only release one style still LISTEN to other things. i conjecture that anyone who makes music worth a damn is a bit eclectic.
and you could just as easily say: being a DJ means you have to immerse yourself in one style... you won't get anywhere playing in hiphop clubs if you drop the odd hardhouse record etc.
of course you CAN be an eclectic DJ, like you are and I am, equally you CAN be an eclectic musician and/or producer. it's a choice.
doesn't have to stop you. but yes, time is limited and we all choose what seems most pressing. i hope you enjoy your choice. but don't let the fact that you like lots of stuff stop you from devoting a little time to expressing yourself musically if it interests you, you might enjoy it!
nonsense. it is important, but definitely not AS or MORE important.
simply put, without the producer, the selector has nothing to select from.
this is nonsense too, you could just as easily turn it around and say musicians give of their innermost selves and share with the world their beautiful music, DJs play other people's music and try and get the glory. (compare, say, Ian Curtis and DJ Tiesto)
the truth of course is a bit of both and somewhere inbetween.
I get the feeling you are trying to justify to yourself the choice to DJ and not produce, but there should be no need for such justification. Making music is indisputably more difficult than DJing but it doesn't mean DJing it not worth doing. just do what you want and enjoy it.
Edward: Whilst ultimately I agree with your sympathies towards privileging the producer over selector, the potential of non-musicians: journalists, DJs (ok- borderline musicians but hang with the argument) Theoreticians, club-owners etc to engage in feedback loops with the musicians is often underestimated... some of the greatest and most innovative music emerges from such interactions- post punk with journalism and theory is one example, most dance music another with the role of the DJ and club promoter in establishing the bounds of the genre before it exists, or, in other words, demarcating the territory which will be occupied with the music which has yet to be produced to precisely occupy such a place... or alternately the DJ/Club promoter as creator of new colonies of music, cutting a certain segment of a genre OUT and focusing exclusively on it, (cf fwd/dark garage into dubstep esp with a view to Hatcha and his ultra-restrictive take on the sound effectively acting as John The Baptist to Dubstep as a distinct emergent genre...)
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that's not all that djing is, in my experience. Djing is about connecting with an audience in a live performance, using recorded music as the medium. I don't know how you measure it, but it isn't necessarily easy, unpracticed, or shallow to mash up the dancefloor.
yes, but without selectors, often producers have no audience to hear them. So what's "important" about what they do then?
What I'm getting it is that to the extent that value has anything social connected to it, djs are at least as important as producers (in the genres we seem to be assuming anyway).
It's not just playing everything and "good luck with an audience" - it's also being able to --at least sometimes-- get the audience into things they didn't know they are into. There's nothing quite like the feeling of getting a house-head audience handed to you (freaking out over commercial 'soulful house' for 2 hours), working them around the dancefloor and having them screaming their heads of to Bogdan Raczinsky breakcore at the end of the set. And it is damned hard work. It requires knowledge of music, selection, attention to flow, and above all the ability to build a relationship with a crowd.
Most producers of electronic music are shit djs, they just play tunes one after the other and don't seem influenced by or attentive to the response. It may be that they feel like performers because people are coming to see them on the basis of their name (which is known through their music), but even so, it's often a let down because there is no dynamic interaction, no flow.
I don't know that it's worth saying which is better, because I think it will fundamentally fal apart on what people think is important about music, but also because djing is a live performance and producers are not, so the expectations and skills are quite different.
bassnation
the abyss
how very odd that you find house & techno dj sets to be like one track all night and then big up one of the most washed-out, boringly banging techno djs ever.
I feel like I am being quoted and then people are challenging things I DIDN'T say.
Gek Opel, I agree, at least as far as i understand your post. Never said DJing wasn't interesting, important or influential upon music makers, just that it is easier to do well than make music.
Ripley...
I quite agree. I completely agree. I still think it's easier to learn than learning to make amazing music from scratch.
Um... what i just said... if the producers didn't record the music, the DJs would not exist. If the DJs didn't play music in clubs, music would still exist.
I'm not dissing DJs at all, I DJ for a living, I am serious about trying to be good at it. But I don't pretend to myself or anyone else that it is as taxing to play a DJ set as it is to record an album.
I completely agree with the rest of your post! Of course the two skills are different, nobody suggested that if you are a musician or a record producer that you are automatcally a good DJ. I just suggested that the skills to be a good DJ, whilst not inconsiderable, are easier (less time intensive) to acquire than the skills to be a good musician. There still needs to be a basic ability present to do either and (but) one set of skills is not a subset of the other.
Gek Opel, I agree, at least as far as i understand your post. Never said DJing wasn't interesting, important or influential upon music makers, just that it is easier to do well than make music.
Ripley...
I quite agree. I completely agree. I still think it's easier to learn than learning to make amazing music from scratch.
Um... what i just said... if the producers didn't record the music, the DJs would not exist. If the DJs didn't play music in clubs, music would still exist.
I'm not dissing DJs at all, I DJ for a living, I am serious about trying to be good at it. But I don't pretend to myself or anyone else that it is as taxing to play a DJ set as it is to record an album.
I completely agree with the rest of your post! Of course the two skills are different, nobody suggested that if you are a musician or a record producer that you are automatcally a good DJ. I just suggested that the skills to be a good DJ, whilst not inconsiderable, are easier (less time intensive) to acquire than the skills to be a good musician. There still needs to be a basic ability present to do either and (but) one set of skills is not a subset of the other.
sing_minimal
Well-known member
he can do total shit sets, but when he's up for it he does his magic. to me mills is one of the top 3 names of electronic music..maybe not as much his djing as his production.
bassnation
the abyss
i'm inclined to agree on the production front, djing not so much. although, if you want incediary innovative dj sets from jeff mills check out his wizard sets from detroit radio circa 1989. mindblowing electro, acid and early house chopped, scratched and segued like a master. about a million more times interesting than any mix hes done since.
sing_minimal
Well-known member
oh, im familiar with his music all back to his beginings..i just love his aesthetics, so i can enjoy some of the recent dj stuff he does as well. have you seen 'exhibitionist'? it's basically a definition of techno music.