virtues of dj vs. producing

[bassnation]

oh, im familiar with his music all back to his beginings..i just love his aesthetics, so i can enjoy some of the recent dj stuff he does as well. have you seen 'exhibitionist'? it's basically a definition of techno music.

i'll check it out, but if its the two-bar loop shit hes been rocking for years it probably won't be my bag. i like his more nuanced productions like the humana stuff. used to love purpose maker, but imo that style of his ruined the techno scene, something its only just recovered from.

 

[sing_minimal]

well, then there's a big chance you won't like it : ) check it out here anyway though; http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

 

[bassnation]

well, then there's a big chance you won't like it : ) check it out here anyway though; http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...l=8&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

lol. don't get me wrong tho, have seen him lots of times and enjoyed it, even when hes been banging it out. probably the last time was sonar maybe four years back. if the drugs hadn't been good tho....

 

[sing_minimal]

four years ago..i think i was there as well..was it some sort of anniversary..maybe 10th? was aphex playing? it was pretty sweet.

also, that mix upthere is the funky one..it seems the main (hard techno) one isn't on google nor youtube..oh well

 

[gek-opel]

@ Edward: Within dance music the majority of the time the producer is the creatively important side of the producer-DJ equation. However, at times of emergent genres, it is the DJ who is by far more important, for it is they who effectively pre-figure the defining characteristics of the genre through one of two strategies:

(a) Bric-a-brac use of records from pre-existent genres together to create a new set of coordinates (ie the limits of a genre) which are then filled in so to speak by producers writing tunes specifically for this generic space.

(b) by honing in on a very specific subset of a previous genre and creating a new genre effectively by emphasising a certain stylistic extremity.

On these occasions of generic rupture it seems tome that it is the DJ who is genuinely and more fundamentally creative. Not only that but I would contend that such moments, given that they are so rare are more difficult to execute than the actual production of music within a genre.

 

[Edward]

I agree with you as far as these special cases you detailed are concerned, and I never said anything contrary to this. I just said that I think it takes more commitment, effort, skill to be a good musician than it does to be a good DJ. I think this uncontroversial and I think you said you agree with me before.

Of course there are exceptionally talented DJs as you point out, and there are lots of extremely unexceptional musicians.

Not only that but I would contend that such moments, given that they are so rare are more difficult to execute than the actual production of music within a genre.

I agree, and I would add that "production of muic within a genre" is more or less without merit and only leads to the existence of generic music. It's only when people ignore the "rules" that great music is made. But that's a whole different thread....

 

[continuum]

I just said that I think it takes more commitment, effort, skill to be a good musician than it does to be a good DJ.

This is impossible to quantify and is just your perception. I'm sure you know this though.

Both dj and producer play equally important roles and to compare them up against each other is a waste of time - with the exception of it producing discussion illuminating the personality of individual posters.

 

[Edward]

I think you can measure commitment and effort in hours.

No more or less of a waste of time than the whole message board.

 

[gek-opel]

I think you can measure commitment and effort in hours.

No more or less of a waste of time than the whole message board.

This is a touch spurious! it removes any level of intellectual commitment or conceptual effort, which may take the form of a moral or decisive exertion rather then mere expenditure of temporal resources... I refuse to accept that some twat practicing for hours on his guitar to achieve technical shredding perfection is more "committed" than someone who sets about pushing the limits on a genre. Anyway, commitment is hardly a value in itself, is it, surely it must depend on what in particular you are committed to...

 

[continuum]

Just displaying my commitment to the defence of the art of djing.

 

[Edward]

I'm still being pulled up on things i never said.

For the zillionth time, I am not attacking DJing.
I have said over and over again that I think it's just as worthwhile DJing as it is making music.
As I have already said, I DJ for a living. I make a lot of effort, I have a lot of records, I look for them, I practise mixing, I watch the crowd. I know what it's all about. I haven't once sought to belittle DJs or say that what they do is unimportant. I love DJs OK?

I merely pointed out 2 things in answer to Zhao's original post:
1 - music can exist without DJs but DJs can't exist without music
2 - it takes more time and effort to learn production and musician skills than it does to learn DJing.

that was all. If anyone disagrees with that, then ok, but not all this other stuff that i never said!


Gek, I agree with you (again!) except that I think someone who spends 6 hours a day practiing guitar and is boring IS STILL more comitted than someone who practises DJing twice a week and is excellent. You rightly point out that commitment isn't everything, I never said it was.
I just said it's harder work to learn one thing than the other. I never said it was better.
OK??

 

[noel emits]

On these occasions of generic rupture it seems tome that it is the DJ who is genuinely and more fundamentally creative. Not only that but I would contend that such moments, given that they are so rare are more difficult to execute than the actual production of music within a genre.

With a decent record collection and a good knowledge of music you could invent a new genre every afternoon. Whether it's relevant to others and adopted as a new style has to do with circumstance and as such is more a function of scenius.

 

[UFO over easy]

This is a touch spurious! it removes any level of intellectual commitment or conceptual effort, which may take the form of a moral or decisive exertion rather then mere expenditure of temporal resources...

I think you can take this point further and apply it to "temporal resources" as well... I think any DJ who has really lost themselves in DJing and takes it seriously will sympathise when I talk about being absorbed by it almost every waking hour. Thinking about music and blends and blah blah blah... I guess that's not really practice or whatever but it shows dedication and it's important still.

I can't remember if this has been brought up already but there's an interesting comparison to be drawn between the two skills, which I think goes some way to explaining why DJing as an artform is so readily dismissed - to a certain extent, the better the musician, the more obvious it is. Of course there's still talk of fantastic musicians "making it look easy," and that's true, but instrumental playing, and especially solo playing is still highly virtuosic; whereas often the opposite is true of really great DJing - the better the DJ, the less obvious it is how much he's actually doing up in that booth, especially to the average person on the dancefloor who doesn't know the tunes being played.

 

[gek-opel]

With a decent record collection and a good knowledge of music you could invent a new genre every afternoon. Whether it's relevant to others and adopted as a new style has to do with circumstance and as such is more a function of scenius.

Exactly so, it needs to emerge partly out of the will of a small number of people but also out of the feedback loop set up between this "New Thing" and its potential audience... But this is why the DJ and the club promoter with the extensive enmeshed relationship with the scene are so key. A different example might be that of Paul Morley and "New Pop" in the early 80s.

 

[gek-opel]

I think you can take this point further and apply it to "temporal resources" as well... I think any DJ who has really lost themselves in DJing and takes it seriously will sympathise when I talk about being absorbed by it almost every waking hour. Thinking about music and blends and blah blah blah... I guess that's not really practice or whatever but it shows dedication and it's important still.

I can't remember if this has been brought up already but there's an interesting comparison to be drawn between the two skills, which I think goes some way to explaining why DJing as an artform is so readily dismissed - to a certain extent, the better the musician, the more obvious it is. Of course there's still talk of fantastic musicians "making it look easy," and that's true, but instrumental playing, and especially solo playing is still highly virtuosic; whereas often the opposite is true of really great DJing - the better the DJ, the less obvious it is how much he's actually doing up in that booth, especially to the average person on the dancefloor who doesn't know the tunes being played.

To be honest I'm entirely uninterested in DJ as musician. The skill factor to me is irrelevant, its more their selection and taste elements which are of interest and importance. But then this is my attitude to musicians also, its not so much the musical-muscle memory-skill elements that are interesting but the brain-selection aspects.

 

[UFO over easy]

To be honest I'm entirely uninterested in DJ as musician. The skill factor to me is irrelevant, its more their selection and taste elements which are of interest and importance. But then this is my attitude to musicians also, its not so much the musical-muscle memory-skill elements that are interesting but the brain-selection aspects.

Are you a DJ though? If you're not, you don't have to think about it at all, which is basically what I'm getting at. If you listen to a good DJ skill-wise, you can concentrate utterly on selection and music - if you listen to a bad DJ, even if the selection is fantastic it's difficult to concentrate on it due to the manner in which it's presented... it's the same with musicians - without spending a lot of time on technique, you won't physically be able process that "brain-selection" accurately. It's all about spending enough time on something that you can execute what you're thinking about almost without thinking...

 

[gek-opel]

Are you a DJ though? If you're not, you don't have to think about it at all, which is basically what I'm getting at. If you listen to a good DJ skill-wise, you can concentrate utterly on selection and music - if you listen to a bad DJ, even if the selection is fantastic it's difficult to concentrate on it due to the manner in which it's presented... it's the same with musicians - without spending a lot of time on technique, you won't physically be able process that "brain-selection" accurately. It's all about spending enough time on something that you can execute what you're thinking about almost without thinking...

Skill is useful. But its not the bit that is interesting to me, its what is done within those skills. Often a limited range of skills mean more mental effort is required to get a workable end result which requires leaps of imagination leading to innovations. But in a way I agree with you to the extent that skill ought to be invisible... Like in yr last Blogariddims mix Ben, the skill factor was entirely subsumed beneath the lateral thinking going on in the track selection and the narrative between pieces... but at the same time I remember listening to some of Gutta's mixes from a few years back where there are some dodgy blends, but it in no way ruined the mix at all...

 

[UFO over easy]

But in a way I agree with you to the extent that skill ought to be invisible... Like in yr last Blogariddims mix Ben, the skill factor was entirely subsumed beneath the lateral thinking going on in the track selection and the narrative between pieces...

thank you

Thinking about it some more I probably under-estimated the value of invisible skill in musicianship... some of the dryest baroque string music out there is hugely impressive technically but leaves me cold...

 

[bassnation]

Are you a DJ though? If you're not, you don't have to think about it at all, which is basically what I'm getting at. If you listen to a good DJ skill-wise, you can concentrate utterly on selection and music - if you listen to a bad DJ, even if the selection is fantastic it's difficult to concentrate on it due to the manner in which it's presented... it's the same with musicians - without spending a lot of time on technique, you won't physically be able process that "brain-selection" accurately. It's all about spending enough time on something that you can execute what you're thinking about almost without thinking...

i don't accept this - look at people like john peel and umpteen reggae selectors. not much beat matching or tricks going on there. peel frequently used to play tracks at the wrong speed by mistake but no-one denies that he was a brilliant dj. gek is right, selection is all.

 

[mms]

i don't think you have to be a technically great dj to be an exciting dj, in contrast, the kind of machined perfection of an albeton dj mix cd sounds terribly uninteresting even if the selection is good compared to the rough and ready selection and possible mixing of a good selector on full hilt. You don't have to beatmatch but if you can combine lots of techniques and some technically skillful things to keep things interesting then thats good. Lots of people don't beatmatch nowdays or particularly blend or mix but i think it's often good to.