Idm

[gek-opel]

All very well and good Stelfox but with the exception of Breakcore "IDM" wasn't dance music at all. The absurd "taking at face value" of a dumb-ass label is just excessive formalism- the content is obviously not dance music in the main whatsoever- not consumed by dance music fans culturally, not consumed in a dance music format (ie-on albums rather than 12"s) etc etc. IDM just=electronica (in the non US meaning) for a long time anyway, electronica of a (relatively) non-threatening variety.

I think Dubstep is obviously dance music, its predominantly sonically (still) cheap n nasty sounding, plasticky underproduced (apart from the bass of course). Kompakt and associated minimal much better fits into the IDM mold as they clearly feature the same series of production design ideas as used in classic IDM... merely refashioned into a new form (or rather, an old one...)

 

[noel emits]

I think the term 'IDM' took hold partly because aside from what the acronym was intended to stand for it does actually flow off the tongue quite nicely and has a certain 'technical' ring to it.

I think what largely characterised and defined the music was that it fetishised and foregrounded processes of synthesis and rythmic invention in and of themselves. Obviously not always a good thing but there you have it.

 

[stelfox]

gek, dubstep is an IDM genre because it has a significant amount of the same fans. that's the whole point. also strange that lots of people in dubstep ARE making albums now that don't sound cheap at all (the new Pinch one is excellent, btw).
also where do you propose microhouse fits into your idea of IDM as totally non-dance? it doesn't. people danced to it a lot, it was sold on traditional dance music formats and it definitely falls within the broader IDM category.
if we're only talking about electronic listening music, this discussion won't least long at all. "so, i've not heard much by b12 lately... no, they've not done anything... oh well, that'll be that then"

 

[noel emits]

IDM just=electronica (in the non US meaning) for a long time anyway, electronica of a (relatively) non-threatening variety.

Yeah that's what usually comes to mind for me when I hear the term. I suppose in terms of the IDM list it did cover a much wider area of music which does support the idea that it's a demographic, or rather an approach to listening, more than a style of music.

 

[stelfox]

and this isn't a criticism of dubstep necessarily, either.

 

[gek-opel]

Well that's my point of contention really. IDM referred to electronic listening music of the mid to late 90s, which feasted on the production tricks of other more vanguard electronic genres. Its a ridiculous piece of terminology as everyone admits as asides from the contentiousness of labelling anything "intelligent" the dance component of it was purely theoretical for the most part. In a sense IDM to me has become a bank of production ideas which are now rifled thru by other producers. So realistically minimal isn't IDM, indeed one could argue the rise of minimal (birthed in part out of microhouse) marked the death of IDM. It is a post IDM dance music genre, as evinced by the massively upgraded sense of obsessiveness over sound design.

Its true Dubstep might be deemed in some senses to be heading "IDM" wards in certain ways (ie- Boxcutter I guess) but tighter cleaner minimal production does not amount to IDM really. Are you seriously suggesting the Pinch is IDM? Obviously it has a cerebral component to it in the sense of the care and attention over each texture and the degree of reductionism involved, and is dance music to the extent that I've been to a club and danced to his tunes. But perhaps you are attempting to revive IDM as a non-ridiculous category (marketing category perhaps? IE: The Boomkat-type crowd? But then why not just say "electronica"...?)

 

[stelfox]

of course i'm not suggesting Pinch is IDM. You're missing my point. I'm not suggesting that anything is IDM, actually. What I am suggesting is that it does fit in with a lot of the aesthetic/cutural expectations/demands of people who like things that would have been classified as IDM . thus it has a similar audience, and in many cases they're the same people. there's a simple test for this. go to dmz or fwd these days and speak to five random people you don't know about autechre/aphex/the black dog etc, then go to two funky house/bassline nights and do the same. it's guaranteed that more people will know what you're talking about at fwd/dmz. hell, a lot of them probably own the records!
also, interesting points re microhouse, but as this audience still exists, largely still wants the same things and is comprised of many of the same people, how can microhouse/minimal have killed IDM? it still exists. it just isn't calling itself that. then again, it never really did.

 

[noel emits]

With IDM / electronica I did find that if you got into conversations with people that were really into it they would often turn out to have rather objectionable attitudes to music and fans of other music. Just that whole smug, elitist collector thing. The funny thing is a lot of these folks were simply blinded by science - believing that because someone had made some random patch in MAX or on a Nord Modular and released it on a label with some minimal packaging and a 'futuristic' sounding name then they must be a total genius.

 

[psherburne]

i'll try to respond at further length when i have more time, but i quickly wanted to address the i-word, which so often is the sticking point in these discussions. but i think that "intelligent" is a bit of a red herring; while some IDM adherents doubtlessly thought their music more clever than "dumb" dance music--and some probably gravitated to the genre for that reason--i'm not so sureu that the genre name initially implied such an ideological division. i certainly never took it to mean such. given the name's relation to warp's "artificial intelligence" comps, i've always taken the "intelligent" in IDM to be a reference to artificial intelligence, sentient machines, music that writes itself. not "IDM is dance music for thinking people," but "IDM is dance music that thinks itself."

 

[noel emits]

Yes that's a very good point. Also in terms of the original AI music being a kind of 'chill-out' thing it was music that did the thinking for you while you wound down from your techno excesses. That's a little fanciful I know but I always felt that was part of the idea.

 

[Mr. Tea]

... the distinction between "stupid" and "stoopid"...(the former being ignorant/meaningless/inconsequential, the latter being, well the same, but spectacularly aware of it)...the difference between REO Speedwagon and the Ramones, one might surmise...

Ha, you beat me to it! I was reading this thread yesterday and thought that the Ramones are the perfect example of good stupid - or 'stoopid', as you put it - music.

 

[psherburne]

also, plenty of non-breakcore IDM absoltely WAS dance music, or at least attempted to be. consider mouse on mars' live shows (and perhaps half their recorded output). and as for the albums over 12"s claim, don't forget skam, MAS, schematic and other labels around 97 that were pretty intensely focused on 12" releases.

 

[gek-opel]

of course i'm not suggesting Pinch is IDM. You're missing my point. I'm not suggesting that anything is IDM, actually. What I am suggesting is that it does fit in with a lot of the aesthetic/cutural expectations/demands of people who like things that would have been classified as IDM . thus it has a similar audience, and in many cases they're the same people. there's a simple test for this. go to dmz or fwd these days and speak to five random people you don't know about autechre/aphex/the black dog etc, then go to two funky house/bassline nights and do the same. it's guaranteed that more people will know what you're talking about at fwd/dmz. hell, a lot of them probably own the records!
also, interesting points re microhouse, but as this audience still exists, largely still wants the same things and is comprised of many of the same people, how can microhouse/minimal have killed IDM? it still exists. it just isn't calling itself that. then again, it never really did.

So IDM as spirit then? As some essence of melodic prog electronica/dance music?

@ pshurburne- that's a very nice way of looking at IDM. I'm not sure if I totally buy into that, but it does expres some of what now seems like the naive optimism of futurity implicit in the music.

 

[stelfox]

also, plenty of non-breakcore IDM absoltely WAS dance music, or at least attempted to be. consider mouse on mars' live shows (and perhaps half their recorded output). and as for the albums over 12"s claim, don't forget skam, MAS, schematic and other labels around 97 that were pretty intensely focused on 12" releases.

spot-on points ^

it's always struck me as futile and wrong to completely divorce the idea of IDM from dance music. just seems rather polemic and reductive in a "THESE PEOPLE NEVER UNDERSTOOD DANCE MUSIC!" kind of way. as a genre, it wasn't that bad, besides the fact that many of the people involved did understand dance music very well. in fact, many of those making the music made plenty of good and very functional dance-oriented stuff and a lot of the audience, at least at the beginning was very understanding of clubs/raves. the AI stuff was all about post-rave and between-clubs listening, not curmudgeonly and reactionary art for the anti-dance brigade. sure, it became problematic later in some ways and pretty dull in others, but there was heaps of it that was actually really good. also, one key track here is speedy j's deorbit, released on ginger, his AI album for warp and caned by bukem and tons of other people (at the wrong speed) as a breakbeat hardcore/proto jungle tune.

 

[psherburne]

never knew that about the speedy j track, dave! that's really interesting. lots of IDM, actually, lent itself to creative pitching -- from the get-go i always preferred the amen andrews records (a late example, of course) played at 33, not 45.

this may have been mentioned upthread but i think a lot of the non-dance IDM probably came from the genre's US offshoots, where rave was a less pervasive influence than in the UK. (i remember the first time i heard aphex twin's SAWII in a record shop, i very explicitly thought to myself, "wow, this doesn't sound like all that rave shit!" of course, mea culpa, i had hardly any idea what i was talking about, but live and learn. unfortunately, the shop employee mis-identified the record as mu-ziq vs. the auteurs, which i bought and brought home to immense disappointment. it didn't sound like rave shit... it just kinda sounded like shit. i tried to get into that record but man, it never clicked for me.)

 

[simon silverdollar]

spot-on points ^

it's always struck me as futile and wrong to completely divorce the idea of IDM from dance music.

i agree, but IDM was/is definitely not intended to be, nor listened to as, dance music exclusively. and that might be important in working out if, say, dubstep is IDM now.

even the skam 12"s had an element of 'collectors items' to them; they were pieces of music to be enjoyed at home, by non-DJs. and of course IDM was also heavily focussed on artist albums. but dubstep still seems more wedded to the club, and also the live pirate radio mix as a kind of 'virtual' club (ack, horrible turn of phrase). it's not, primarily, music for playing at home on your own.

 

[stelfox]

the more fruitful way to look at this i think is recognising that there are elements of the dubstep scene that function very much in the same way as progressive techno around the period that the AI series came out. sure, you've got clubbier music, which forms the bulk of the scene, but then you have burial, shackleton etc which are definitely better listened to at home than in a club, and share the same audience. it's just a very similar fanbase and a very similar set of enthusiasms. like i say, this isn't a bad thing. if anything, dubstep should be grateful for all the nice young, well-behaved idm people iwth relatively large disposable incomes who have hopped on board and saved its skin!

 

[simon silverdollar]

Kompakt and associated minimal much better fits into the IDM mold as they clearly feature the same series of production design ideas as used in classic IDM... merely refashioned into a new form (or rather, an old one...)

i'm not sure about the links between Kompakt and IDM- for the most part, there's a real lack of interest in technical complexity from Kompakt artists- but much minimal does seem to fit the IDM mould: there's that quote from villalobos about autechre perfecting the developments of sound-design that's fed into his own work. also, richie hawtin's about as proggy as it gets...

 

[soul_pill]

This thread is very IDM.

 

[sing_minimal]

dubstep is as much idm as drum and bass/ jungle was 10, 12 years ago imo. you had people with idm background who found the new style intriguing and started going that way and it's same nowdays i'd say. idm made excellent ground for most electronic music today (appart from techno, house, trance) and it went in lots of directions..there are still some people left who develope the idm sound in its orthodox sense too though.