Idm

[mms]

yes and no

the u.s. audience for warp, aphex, etc, was different than the original house constituency, and, yes, a lot of them came out of industrial and indie rock scenes

HOWEVER, i was in england in 92/93 -- i was there, man -- and the whole entire "intelligent dance" movement began in the uk at that time and was packaged as such

knowledge at sw1 as early as fall 92

and there as a huge media push for "ambient" music as the next big thing, as a definite musical advance over house and hardcore -- magazines like ID had issues devoted to "ambient" -- and theses magaiznes pushed people like aphex twin and bandulu and orbital

so, yeah, you can pin a lot of things on us ravers, who in the main came to things rather late and with blinkered understandings -- but intelligent dance was a UK invention without one scintilla of doubt

knowledge was more a militant pure techno club, that was a weird time, that was a concerted effort to keep techno pure from breakbeats yes, but that was one club in a UK where thousands and thousands of kids went out every weekend and got off their heads and danced to music.
the end of hardcore was where things started to really faction off into diff strands of music in the uk though, hard house, happy hardcore, gabber, trance, jungle, electro etc.

 

[stelfox]

Ehh I see what you mean, but I have to disagree with this. I know tons of former jungle kids, former d&b kids, and they have done LOADS of ecstacy, dust, meth (mostly meth), k, acid, you name it.

this is a perfect illustration of how completely and utterly wrong north america got jungle/d&b from the start and a good explanation of why the records that came out of america were so bad. no one was doing that here. jungle's break away darkside breakbeat hardcore came from an evolution in the rhythms, an increased concentration of jamaican soundsystem ideas and the interpolation of dancehall reggae. this more yard-focussed attitude killed ecstasy use stone dead. it was a pretty skanky, adulterated, chopped up drug by this point anyway and people were predominantly sick of it, but the main thing was that it didn't work with the music or the vibe any more. i remember UK raves being thick with ganja smoke, people drinking brandy and dragon stouts and maybe a bit of coke going around, too, but never, ever in a million years would anyone have taken anything like ketamine, acid or ecstasy. it would have made you look like a moron and destroyed any appreciation of what the music was about.

yes and no

the u.s. audience for warp, aphex, etc, was different than the original house constituency, and, yes, a lot of them came out of industrial and indie rock scenes

HOWEVER, i was in england in 92/93 -- i was there, man -- and the whole entire "intelligent dance" movement began in the uk at that time and was packaged as such

knowledge at sw1 as early as fall 92

and there as a huge media push for "ambient" music as the next big thing, as a definite musical advance over house and hardcore -- magazines like ID had issues devoted to "ambient" -- and theses magaiznes pushed people like aphex twin and bandulu and orbital

so, yeah, you can pin a lot of things on us ravers, who in the main came to things rather late and with blinkered understandings -- but intelligent dance was a UK invention without one scintilla of doubt

the music's evolution kicked off in the UK, definitely. and you're right, it wouldn't have happened in the same way without british artists. but you're getting both me and marcus wrong here, i think. like i said earlier no one would have used the term IDM here, apart from journalists, really. IDM as movement/culture, which is far more important than IDM as music for the purposes of this discussion is a US thing, really. knowledge was indeed a straight techno night, but then again there may be an interesting point nested in here, as knowledge was very anti-breakbeat and completely divorced itself from the british hardcore continuum (tho i think the mover did play there once) i've always seen the US IDM audience as being if not anti-hardcore (most of them wouldn't know what hardcore was really) then definitely in implicit and aesthetic opposition. it's quite telling that, as an american, you'd say that knowledge was IDM, dominic, because actually, in the sense that i'm more defining IDM and according to marcus's ideas about the roles of american interpretations of electronica in the creation of IDM as a standalone culture, it probably was...

 

[bassnation]

this is a perfect illustration of how completely and utterly wrong north america got jungle/d&b from the start and a good explanation of why the records that came out of america were so bad. no one was doing that here. jungle's break away darkside breakbeat hardcore came from an evolution in the rhythms, an increased concentration of jamaican soundsystem ideas and the interpolation of dancehall reggae. this more yard-focussed attitude killed ecstasy use stone dead. it was a pretty skanky, adulterated, chopped up drug by this point anyway and people were predominantly sick of it, but the main thing was that it didn't work with the music or the vibe any more. i remember UK raves being thick with ganja smoke, a bit of coke going around too, but never ever anything like ketamine or ecstasy. it would have made you look like a moron and destroyed any appreciation of what the music was about.

i remember people still doing e's and listening to jungle in places like the labyrinth dave, certainly as late as 1993. i don't agree that it destroys any appreciation of the music. jungle came out of rave and the whole beat engineering thing came out of hardcore - its perfect music for ecstasy, was designed for people on it, simple as that. on the rare times when i do pills, its all i listen to (even when i don't do them it is, but thats another story lol). in fact most things sound great on it, including grime - but that just may be me being a freak ha ha. theres always been a yard element to hardcore anyway, even when it was more loved up.

if we are talking 1995 onwards yeah i'm with you. but the tail end of rave, darkside - that is total ecstasy music, even if the euphoria was melting away.

and to underline my point, currently listening to bizzy b's darkside 1993 classic "ecstasy is a science"

 

[noel emits]

And don't forget Jungle was also big with the free party people, at least in S. London. In fact it was co-existing there along with 'ambient' and techno, often at the same parties. Obviously all kinds of rugs being done. But yes later on there was definitely a more widespread rejection of E. In a way the music and people's nervous systems had integrated the E buzz so well that you didn't need it anymore.

NP: Soundmurderer. Some yanks got it right, eventually.

 

[bassnation]

In a way the music and people's nervous systems had integrated the E buzz so well that you didn't need it anymore.

yeah definitely. i was walking through norwood on my way to work listening to baby d "let me be your fantasy" and got a complete ecstasy rush, hair standing on end and everything. i reckon i could leave it for twenty years and that would still happen.

 

[stelfox]

God, things like Metalheadz, Speed and the odd couple of times I ever made it to Roast (I was living away from London at this point but coming back down very regularly for precisely this reason) I really didn't see much evidence of promiscuous drug use. In fact, this is one of the things that marked the separation from hardcore for me. I guess it depended on where you went/who you hung with but I had a pretty different picture of this.

 

[noel emits]

Well sometimes it's a bit hard to pinpoint the exact chronology, ahem. I'd have to check but I think Speed and Metalheadz came a little later on. But yeah they were definitely not Ecstacy scenes. I used to love Speed - stand by the speakers and smoke skunk in a pipe - amazing how good Horizons sounded in there All about Bug In The Bassbin at 45 though.

And K cider.

 

[bassnation]

God, things like Metalheadz, Speed and the odd couple of times I ever made it to Roast (I was living away from London at this point but coming back down very regularly for precisely this reason) I really didn't see much evidence of promiscuous drug use. In fact, this is one of the things that marked the separation from hardcore for me. I guess it depended on where you went/who you hung with but I had a pretty different picture of this.

but even if people weren't doing drugs (and i am willing to bet they were, i mean even now when the club thing is supposed to be passe, people are still doing e's in all kinds of places - even reggae soundsystems for gods sake, and don't even get me started on the retro northern soul nights) the metalheadz sound was totally orientated round deep techy future hardcore. goldie mixed down his first album on ecstasy, its well documented. i guess a lot people had sloped off into using cocaine as they'd burnt themselves out on the more nuttier drugs.

i just won't have a word said against it!

speed was totally not my kind of club, or sound - way too smooth, but ironically i probably appreciate that music more now than at the time).

 

[noel emits]

speed was totally not my kind of club, or sound - way too smooth, but ironically i probably appreciate that music more now than at the time).

I wouldn't have thought I'd like it either but I went once on my own to check it out had really good time so I ended up going quite often. For a period it was exciting as the music was evolving weekly, what Fabio was doing wasn't always as smooth as you might think. Blue Note was obviously a bit more techy and harsh musically and I liked hearing all that stuff but it always pissed me off how packed the dancefloor would get.

* Edited for irrelevant reminiscing.

 

[nomadologist]

well jeez, i have done those drugs and i never even had to go to a party to do them! i must have looked really dumb and forgotten about all the music.

just because you don't see someone buying, selling, or doing, doesn't mean it isn't happening. i mean, people who've been to my apartment might not have seen me doing speedballs, but it doesn't mean i wasn't.

 

[noel emits]

Stelfox is probably talking about hardcore junglist heartlands like AWOL where I guess drug use apart from weed and coke wasn't really the done thing.

 

[nomadologist]

Maybe not. I don't know what that is.

 

[stelfox]

and therein lies my point

 

[bassnation]

Stelfox is probably talking about hardcore junglist heartlands like AWOL where I guess drug use apart from weed and coke wasn't really the done thing.

yeah and what a great atmosphere that place had.


i don't really like attempts to decouple or discredit jungles link with ecstasy, its like dividing by zero, i.e impossible. even the rough ragga-tastic stuff has synth drops designed to tweak your e buzz for gods sake. the whole weed and coke thing while true, is overplayed. and to be perfectly honest i''d rather be in a room of pilled up sweaties than one filled with crack smoking cardboard gangtas. its also a myth that black people don't or didn't take e back then, something thats highly suspect in reynolds book imo. my mates certainly did and they were far from the only ones.

exhibit 2 - 1994 or maybe even as late as 1995 - tek 9 - a london sumting - just listen to the breakdown and tell me there was no ecstasy influence after the end of hardcore.

you want to claim jungle for "urban" whatever that means - you'll have to kill all the old ravers first.

 

[stelfox]

i mean, people who've been to my apartment might not have seen me doing speedballs, but it doesn't mean i wasn't.

this really doesn't have a lot to do with anything, does it?

yeah and what a great atmosphere that place had.


i don't really like attempts to decouple or discredit jungles link with ecstasy, its like dividing by zero, i.e impossible. even the rough ragga-tastic stuff has synth drops designed to tweak your e buzz for gods sake. the whole weed and coke thing while true, is overplayed. and to be perfectly honest i''d rather be in a room of pilled up sweaties than one filled with crack smoking cardboard gangtas.

i'm also not saying that there was no crossover or bleeding into one another of drug trends. all i'm saying is that, for the most part, jungle/d&b wasn't really that driven by psychedelics and that there were other influences at play. without ecstasy jungle would never have happened because crappy E and its overuse was a big influence on darkside breakbeat hardcore. for the record, i'm not saying ecstasy was bad or stupid — and am in no position to anyway. all i'm saying is that the drug associations that nomad predictably brought up show jungle to be a very different thing in the US to what it was here. and now we're completely off-topic...

 

[nomadologist]

this really doesn't have a lot to do with anything, does it?




i'm also not saying that there was no crossover or bleeding into one another of drug trends. all i'm saying is that, for the most part, jungle/d&b wasn't really that driven by psychedelics and that there were other influences at play. without ecstasy jungle would never have happened because crappy E and its overuse was a big influence on darkside breakbeat hardcore. for the record, i'm not saying ecstasy was bad or stupid — and am in no position to anyway. all i'm saying is that the drug associations that nomad predictably brought up show jungle to be a very different thing in the US to what it was here. and now we're completely off-topic...

yeah, it was an illustration of the point that you don't always know what others are putting into their systems. even if you're sitting next to them.

 

[bassnation]

and now we're completely off-topic...

ha ha, just how we like it! after all, idm hijacked jungle it seems entirely proper that a thread on idm morphs into a discussion of darkside jungle.

 

[dominic]

but never, ever in a million years would anyone have taken anything like ketamine, acid or ecstasy. it would have made you look like a moron and destroyed any appreciation of what the music was about.

errr, what years are we talking about???? -- there was a lot of ketamine abuse in brighton and clubs like "full circle" and "shave yer tongue" in the south . . . . twas not the pioneering edge of the jungle sound (was fairly crap house music by summer 93), but they certainly had off-the-wall parties -- they pioneered the drugs, let's say, not the music -- as degenerate as things got in america by late 90s, i'd already seen it before in brighton

it's quite telling that, as an american, you'd say that knowledge was IDM, dominic, because actually, in the sense that i'm more defining IDM and according to marcus's ideas about the roles of american interpretations of electronica in the creation of IDM as a standalone culture, it probably was...

except that i never said that knowledge was an IDM night

what i said was that the agenda for, and promotion of, "intelligent dance" sounds began in the uk

i remember going to one or two parties that featured strictly ambient music -- i think it was called "sugar lump" and it featured charlie hall of the drum club and other djs -- this was fall 1992 -- they played NOTHING BUT AMBIENT MUSIC for like 10 hours -- really bizarre and beautiful music -- of course i was totally fucked on e's and poppers, so who really knows -- but yeah, it really made an impression on me at the time

now as far as "IDM as a standalone culture" goes -- yes, you're probably right, that probably is an american invention -- of course i never experienced anything as lame as SubTonic until i moved to new york, so i'm not sure if i even know what you're talking about . . . .

that is, i had friends in st louis in late 90s who played a lot of aphex twin and the like -- i.e., their sets were pretty damn near exclusively what we would call "idm" -- but they were also involved in throwing massive raves in the midwest -- superstars of love and the like -- so it definitely was not a "standalone culture" for them either

maybe by standalone culture you simply mean the home-listening market??? home-listeners with no real rave or club experience? yes, that's an american thing most likely

but as far as the initial movement toward "intelligent" and "ambient" sounds -- whether at places like knowledge (pure techno) or the sugar lump parties (strictly ambient) -- these were uk initiatives going way way back to 1992

also, i'm not sure when the term "intelligent dance" came onto the scene, but certainly a club like knowledge was but one small step away from coining the term . . . .

and, again, there was a massive media push for this in the uk -- magazines like ID -- god, i remember reading genealogies of ambient music in ID and the like . . . .

 

[noel emits]

Well I think we can agree that Brighton is a bit erm, different. Ketamine is still extremely popular, as is just about everything else.

Sugar Lump were more about proggy dubby house really IIRC - do you mean the Telepathic Fish or Spacetime parties? Pure 'ambient' trip out events. Actually there was some crossover between the crews. I don't think there's really been much like that since. Perhaps we can just hold Mixmaster Morris responsible for the media push of ambient and listening techno. The Face and ID loved him and he was really on a mission.

I don't think I heard the term IDM used until well after '95 though. Not saying it wasn't there but even those people involved in what might called electronica in the UK wouldn't have called it IDM at all.

 

[stelfox]

errr, what years are we talking about???? -- there was a lot of ketamine abuse in brighton and clubs like "full circle" and "shave yer tongue" in the south . . . . twas not the pioneering edge of the jungle sound (was fairly crap house music by summer 93), but they certainly had off-the-wall parties -- they pioneered the drugs, let's say, not the music -- as degenerate as things got in america by late 90s, i'd already seen it before in brighton

dominic, i am specifically talking about JUNGLE and D&B! that and only that.

and yes i do mean the home listening market to a degree, but more importantly i mean the cultural environment in which a term like IDM was really able to flourish — as marcus says, much more american than british.

and will someone please come in and help me here!