Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[hucks]

Or this

 

[scottdisco]

ha ha those are both brilliant, nice one to you two! Gravity's Rainbow on audio, heh.

as Hucks for me forgetting i will get on combing my browser history, but whoever told me said that - for instance - the BBC has screened DEC appeals for Congo (Kinshasa i assume) and some other African country

"some other African country"

all the first-rate international analysis at casa somedisco eh

was their Myanmar/Burma appeal a DEC one? (i think so.)

 

[craner]

Not to be uncharitable, but I would suggest that a book from an author who is a member of the conservative think tank the Jewish Policy Center (whish gives: "[F]ull support to Israel in its long war for security in the Middle East") and a commentator for Fox news who sees the conflict through the lens of 'anti-terrorism', may not give anything other than a propagandistic picture of Palestinians.

Well, sure, that's an obvious thing to say, and his credentials hardly do him any favours for those predisposed against the Jewish Policy Center and Fox News. However, having actually read the book, I can say that it's a well-sourced bit of scholarship that, yes, takes a pretty dim view of intra-Palestinian politics but is nevertheless anything but propaganda. It's certainly the only book I know of that forensically examines the Hamas/Fatah rivalry, makes some sense of it, and shows that Palestinian leadership has been as damaging to the Palestinian people as Israeli aggression.

Unlike Daniel Pipes contribution which does no favours to any debate he barges into. I have to say, I admire his father (Property and Freedom is a fine and important, if bizarely neglected, work) so it's rather a shame he has such a buffoon for a son.

 

[scottdisco]

is it true that Hamas are selling food aid to the impoverished people of Gaza (as opposed to giving it away)?

frankly, almost nothing would surprise me about Hamas, but i have only just noticed this on a message board, haven't checked it out myself, and wonder if anyone knows.

 

[craner]

Um, Droid, I just noticed that your link to the Jewish Policy Centre goes straight to Source Watch, a ludicrously skewed sub-wiki website, rather than, say JPC's own website. Is this your ideal of impartiality?

 

[droid]

Um, Droid, I just noticed that your link to the Jewish Policy Centre goes straight to Source Watch, a ludicrously skewed sub-wiki website, rather than, say JPC's own website. Is this your ideal of impartiality?

Oliver, whilst not defending Sourcewatch, can you point out any inaccuracies in that page? I linked to it as a brief summary of the organisation, and considering all it does is quote the JPC website, I dont see what the problem is... wrong postcode on the address maybe?

Please enlighten us.

...and shows that Palestinian leadership has been as damaging to the Palestinian people as Israeli aggression

Come now... no-one here is defending the fanatical Hamas and the corrupt PLO/Fatah, but this is an outrageous statement - or did I miss that bit of history where the Palestinian leadership massacred and dispossesed their own people, stole their land and resources and then forced to them to live in squalor under brutal occupation for 40 years and now bombs the trapped population at will whilst ignoring IL and expanding illegal settlements ?

 

[droid]

Do you have any more on this, out of curiosity?

Edit: Sorry, I see you say you've forgotten. Well, if you happen to remember...

DEC appeals screened by the BBC

13.10.05 South Asia Quake Appeal £59m
02.08.05 Niger Crisis Appeal £32m
06.01.05 Tsunami Appeal £372m
20.07.04 Sudan Crisis Appeal £35m
12.08.03 Liberia Appeal £2.5m
25.07.02 Southern Africa Crisis £16m
24.01.02 Goma Crisis Appeal £4.65m

 

[scottdisco]

cheers Droid!

i must have been thinking of their Sudan appeal i think. in fact, yes, the person i alluded to mentioned their Sudan appeal, that Sudan Crisis appeal.

a quick look at the relevant section of the DEC site shows other appeals.

it seems the BBC - AFAIK - did not broadcast, say, the Darfur and Chad Crisis Appeal initiated on 29th February last year.

going out on a slight limb but that other omission really shows you everything you need to know about the BBC - i am not defending their failing to screen this appeal, far from it - in terms of their desire to be even.
this is reaching, but one assumes they felt the Darfur and Chad crisis appeal might imply a statement of support for Khartoum ahead of N'Djamena (or, vice-versa), or perhaps they felt they would be muddying their reportage on attempts to get the leadership of Khartoum in the dock for various crimes.

shakes head / shrugs

 

[craner]

Come now... no-one here is defending the fanatical Hamas and the corrupt PLO/Fatah, but this is an outrageous statement - or did I miss that bit of history where the Palestinian leadership massacred and dispossesed their own people, stole their land and resources and then forced to them to live in squalor under brutal occupation for 40 years and now bombs the trapped population at will whilst ignoring IL and expanding illegal settlements ?

I don't know, but you may have missed the bit where other Arab regimes massacred Palestinians directly, particularly Jordan, a direct result of the Palestinian's corrupt and decayed and murderous leadership. The thing is, Palestinians are perpertual victims, but not only because of Israeli tactics, but as a result of Arab politics, from Nasser's self-destrcutive bluster, to various Syrian regimes insane anti-semitism, to the squalid refugee camps that remain there decades in not just because of Israeli policy, but also because of Arab State's policies. From the beginning to the end the Palestinians have been caught in the middle of realpolitik - and when they got their "own" leaders, it got worse because they were either corrupt terrorists or mad Islamists. A very defintion of tragedy.

Now you have a situation where Palestinian culture is quite sick - culturally and morally - and Israeli culture is brutal and paranoid. And, in the end there will be a real war with Iran. This is coming at us like Christmas.

 

[scottdisco]

a sad day for international justice

it's worth noting that the US simply withdrew from the ICJ following the 1986 Nicaragua ruling, reversing something Truman had taken the Americans into 40 years earlier.

Postscript

On May 11, 2003 Theodore Sorenson, President Kennedy's chief speechwriter, delivered the commencement address at American University in Washington, DC. In his speech he called the decision to withdraw from the World Court in 1986 a "mistake," adding:

The World Court, established after World War I, to move disputes between nations from the battlefield to the courtroom, merits our full support. We must avoid a world in which any nation can decide on its own whether it has grounds to attack its neighbor, or seize its neighbor's resources. This country has both a history and an obligation of leadership in international jurisprudence. In today's unpromising, unpredictable, unruly world, stronger institutions of international justice would make the United States a safer place.

of course Barack Obama is not Ronald Reagan.

having thought about it some more, i don't accept that the US or Israel possess any more chutzpah in terms of breaking international law whilst focusing their condemnation on enemy states who they (the US or Israel) believe are breaking IL although silent on their own faults, are any more egregious on a pot / kettle basis than other countries for this; though it follows that this does not argue against any of Droid's observations of the US or Israel flouting IL.

some ICJ 'greatest hits'.

to get back O/T, incidentally, i don't think the horrible persecution of the Palestinians in Kuwait in 1990-1 is as widely known as it should be.

 

[craner]

Nor do I. Well said.

 

[droid]

I don't know, but you may have missed the bit where other Arab regimes massacred Palestinians directly, particularly Jordan, a direct result of the Palestinian's corrupt and decayed and murderous leadership. The thing is, Palestinians are perpertual victims, but not only because of Israeli tactics, but as a result of Arab politics, from Nasser's self-destrcutive bluster, to various Syrian regimes insane anti-semitism, to the squalid refugee camps that remain there decades in not just because of Israeli policy, but also because of Arab State's policies. From the beginning to the end the Palestinians have been caught in the middle of realpolitik - and when they got their "own" leaders, it got worse because they were either corrupt terrorists or mad Islamists. A very defintion of tragedy.

And this exercise in historical obviousness and the behaviour of arab governments backs up your ridiculous assertion how exactly? Even Black September is a blip compared to say... Israel's invasion of Lebanon.

And, in the end there will be a real war with Iran. This is coming at us like Christmas.

Yes, those damn Iranians. The real threat to peace in the middle east.

 

[droid]

having thought about it some more, i don't accept that the US or Israel possess any more chutzpah in terms of breaking international law whilst focusing their condemnation on enemy states who they (the US or Israel) believe are breaking IL although silent on their own faults, are any more egregious on a pot / kettle basis than other countries for this; though it follows that this does not argue against any of Droid's observations of the US or Israel flouting IL.

Grand. I don't really want to argue the point, but I will ask - is their another state that has effectively legalised torture and is in violation of about 60 UN resolutions? The US supports such a state whilst invading another state using a punishment for a single possible (but highly unlikely) violation of a UN resolution (and the defense of IL) as a justification.

Seems pretty like egregious hypocrisy to me. Beyond chutzpah in fact

(But I guess the important point, is that, unlike when (say) China or Russia behaves in a similar manner, people actually buy the bullshit when its Western nations doing the bombing or the arming or the torturing.)

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yes, those damn Iranians. The real threat to peace in the middle east.

In fairness he said a war with Iran, not a war started by Iran.

Oliver, remember those ominous IAF training exercises last year? The Pentagon itself said they were clearly gearing up for a strike against Iran.

 

[scottdisco]

excellent questions etc on your first part of the reply Droid, and as i am sure you know, in terms of UNSC resolutions Israel violates - any violation is of course shocking - and in great number (in great number they are guilty along with the likes of Morocco and Turkey).

there is another point to be made about the possible vigor with which the UN looks at Israel sometimes to the exclusion of other problem areas: for example, during the General Assembly for 2006-2007, ambassadors enacted 22 Israel resolutions but none on Sudan.
but that is a bit off-topic, perhaps, and i am rather good at unwittingly straying off-t

(But I guess the important point, is that, unlike when (say) China or Russia behaves in a similar manner, people actually buy the bullshit when its Western nations doing the bombing or the arming or the torturing.)

as regards your quote in brackets, it is good of you to say you didn't want to argue the first point (and as you were kind enough not to point out explicitly, i didn't provide any evidence on thread for my assertion, largely as it was more of an aside and we could perhaps have another thread for those issues), and so i should return your courtesy.

i expect credulous citizens of any country don't think their own govt is deep into any bad stuff when that topic comes up - Chinese, Russian, American, whoever.
but as for people actually buy the bullshit when its Western nations doing the bombing or the arming or the torturing, well, here i'll return your courtesy.

 

[droid]

i expect credulous citizens of any country don't think their own govt is deep into any bad stuff when that topic comes up - Chinese, Russian, American, whoever.
but as for people actually buy the bullshit when its Western nations doing the bombing or the arming or the torturing, well, here i'll return your courtesy.

You are a stickler!. I'm more than happy to add the qualifications "many people who live in Western Nations actually buy the bullshit..." in return for your courtesy.

 

[scottdisco]

ah i see!

sorry Droid



well in that case i agree with you entirely..

 

[scottdisco]

more evidence that Netanyahu is an irredeemable twunt of a man

The front-runner in Israel's election said in an interview published Monday that he would let Jewish settlements expand in the West Bank if he's elected prime minister

wonderful

 

[droid]

ah i see!

sorry Droid



well in that case i agree with you entirely..

And sorry to stray even further off topic - but this situation is compounded by the fact that China (and to a lesser extent Russia) are authoritarian societies in which populations are at least partly controlled through state propaganda, whereas we live in democracies with a supposedly free media acting as the 4th estate.

In fairness he said a war with Iran, not a war started by Iran.

True - but this is Craner were talking about here!

Well, sure, that's an obvious thing to say, and his credentials hardly do him any favours for those predisposed against the Jewish Policy Center and Fox News. However, having actually read the book, I can say that it's a well-sourced bit of scholarship that, yes, takes a pretty dim view of intra-Palestinian politics...

OK. I'll take your word that the scholarship is honest and add it to my reading list.

 

[droid]

More on the BBC, whose position is seeming more and more untenable.

Click to see the links in his post:

Let's see: we have a campaign of protests and returning license fees. We have the initiatives of celebrities (see David Soul, Ursula Le Guin and China Mieville on the Stop the War website). We have had three BBC HQs occupied, the latest of which was BBC Manchester. There was also a new protest outside BBC Scotland yesterday. We have 112 170 MPs backing a motion to force the BBC to change its stance on the Gaza Crisis Appeal. We have the Archbishop of Canterbury sticking his beard in. Now we have the nobel prize winning head of the IAEA boycotting the BBC. Every time Mark Thomspon restates his position, he only sounds more incoherent. He cannot explain how ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 managed to show the appeal without a sudden collapse in viewer confidence. And now the UN, as if to underline the terrible needfulness of the situation in Gaza and the callousness of those who would withhold aid, has launched an appeal for $613m. Could the UN be... good Lord... taking sides? And amid all this talk about impartiality, what has been brought out in striking clarity, and even reported in some right-wing papers, is the BBC's manifest bias toward Israel. I tell you, even if the BBC doesn't back down on this, this campaign is going to make them rue the day. We can and should make it the worst decision Mark Thompson ever made.