D

droid

Guest
Ha, yes.
This really does seem to be happening and, if so, it is completely indefensible. I don't really see where this even room for debate on this.

But Rich, don't you know about 'purity of arms'? Israel doesn't target civilians. It takes all precautions to prevent the deaths of innocents. Its all the fault of Hamas/PLO/evil terrorists who hide behind human shields, and thus, Israel bears absolutely no moral responsibility for its actions...

 
D

droid

Guest
Analysis from Haaretz:

...During the second intifada, he and Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin (a combat pilot and now director of Military Intelligence) co-authored a document entitled "Moral Combat Against Terrorism," which defends the use of force against terrorists who hide amid a civilian population. The incident that motivated the document's drafting was the assassination of Salah Shehadeh, a senior Hamas figure, in an attack which also left 15 civilians dead. But that was a proportional attack compared to the firepower the IDF unleashed in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead.

Compared to Hezbollah, Hamas prepared a ramified defensive network to block the IDF's entry. The number of underground mines and booby-trapped buildings in Gaza was unprecedented. Hamas failed because the IDF proceeded with a strategy of pounding, first from the air, then on the ground. A series of conversations with officers this week reinforces the conclusion formed at the outset of the ground operation: The General Staff identified the public's intolerance for soldiers' deaths as an Achilles heel. The IDF used tremendous firepower, knowing this would claim the lives of hundreds of Palestinian civilians, to reduce its own casualties and forestall a situation in which the war would be brought to an end prematurely.

Thomas Friedman, the New York Times columnist, conjectured that Israel wanted to "educate" Hamas and the inhabitants of Gaza by means of brutal collective punishment. Such an interpretation is not entirely wrong, given the scale of the destruction wrought by the Israeli-made Viper mine-clearing machines (which cause an underground explosion that sets off hidden land mines). Officers in command posts describe a different atmosphere that was dictated by the senior command level. Reports from the field mention a directive for bulldozers to raze dozens of buildings - not because they were booby-trapped, but because they were blocking the forces' "line of vision."

The truth must be said: For years the army has demonstrated insensitivity in regard to killing Palestinian civilians, certainly in times of heavy fighting. In the fall of 2004, during Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip, one could see the grim faces of officers, after learning about the deaths of two children from Sderot by a Qassam rocket. The result was not long in coming: seven civilians were killed by tank fire at an UNRWA school in Jabalya. Anyone who saw that incident will not be surprised at the 42 civilians who were killed in a similar barrage during Operation Cast Lead. Israel does not implement murderous methods like the Russians in Chechnya, or violence on a par with American actions in Iraq. But it is acting far more harshly than it did in Jenin during Operation Defensive Shield in 2002 or in Bint Jbeil, Lebanon, in 2006. The present aggressive policy reminded veteran officers, among them the chief of staff, of the actions of the Israeli forces in Lebanon in 1982. Perhaps we can expect another generational trauma, of the kind that engendered the film "Waltz with Bashir" so late in the day...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
think you better shut up vimothy. you look stupid now.

I was about to say something similar...vim, droid is running rings around you in this thread, why not just let it drop? Where does your reflexive must-defend-Israel response come from? It's clear to anyone who cares to open their eyes and ears that Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza. Splitting hairs over white phosphorus is not going to persuade anyone here that Israel is somehow acting in justified 'self-defence'.
 
D

droid

Guest
Denial is not a river in Egypt

The IDF echoing one of Vimothy's arguments:

...A senior army official also admitted that shells containing phosphorus had been used in Gaza but said that they were used to provide a smokescreen...

...“From what I know, at least one month before it was used a legal team had been consulted on the implications,” an Israeli defence official said. He added that Israel was surprised about the public outcry. “Everyone knew we were using it, and everyone else uses it. We didn’t think it would get this much attention,” he said.

But the Times doesnt seem to be willing to let this one slide:

CHANGING TUNE

January 5 The Times reports that telltale smoke has appeared from areas of shelling. Israel denies using phosphorus

January 8 The Times reports photographic evidence showing stockpiles of white phosphorus (WP) shells. Israel Defence Forces spokesman says: “This is what we call a quiet shell – it has no explosives and no white phosphorus”

January 12
The Times reports that more than 50 phosphorus burns victims are taken into Nasser Hospital. An Israeli military spokesman “categorically” denies the use of white phosphorus

January 15 Remnants of white phosphorus shells are found in western Gaza. The IDF refuses to comment on specific weaponry but insists ammunition is “within the scope of international law”

January 16 The United Nations Relief and Works Agency headquarters are hit with phosphorus munitions. The Israeli military continues to deny its use

January 21 Avital Leibovich, Israel’s military spokeswoman, admits white phosphorus munitions were employed in a manner “according to international law”

January 23 Israel says it is launching an investigation into white phosphorus munitions, which hit a UN school on January 17. “Some practices could be illegal but we are going into that. The IDF is holding an investigation concerning one specific unit and one incident” Source: Times database

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5575070.ece
 

Dial

Well-known member
The Way Forward is?

Droid, I'm impressed by your grasp and ability to document the situation. I've been having discussion elsewhere with those who are remarkably resistant to a change of view, no matter how often you point out the absurdities or fallacies in their argument. This points up, as does indeed, the very conflict itself, how little influence proximate causes, or rights and wrongs, have on those in on either side in the debate. It seems far more fruitful to focus on a way forward that involves Israel and the Palestinians coming to terms.

I think Glenn Greenwald is right: Open debate must begin in the US - as banker and provider of arms to Israel - as to what is really in the best interests of the US and Israel. And then a careful step by step negotiation - necessarily backed by the US - towards a marginalizing of radicals on both sides, and bringing both the Palestinians and the Israelis to an understanding that the best guarantee of peace and a stable future is a coming to terms. He sees this as a slow and agonizing process of political negotiation that nonetheless has successful precedents both in Ireland and the former Yugoslav republics.

And, of course, for that debate to occur the stranglehold in the United States that Aipac and the Southern Baptists have on discussion of Israel must be overcome.

Here's Greenwald arguing with Hugh Hewitt.

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/blog/g/7effa77f-6679-4f3c-b1ba-419feb4cbb50

And here's the original blog post in which he comments.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/06/hewitt/

And I see today on ZNet, some observation from Chomsky on recent
destructive actions and words from Obama in support of Israel. Dispiriting.

Do you have a way forward?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
What. The. Fuck?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7850407.stm

Sky has joined the BBC in deciding not to broadcast a charity appeal for Gaza, despite mounting political and public pressure for them to do so.

BBC boss Mark Thompson has again defended the decision, saying it would jeopardise the BBC's impartiality.

Sky News said running the Disasters Emergency Committee advert was "incompatible" with its objective role.

How is it not 'objectively' true that hundreds of civilians are being murdered in Gaza? I mean Sky I can understand, but the BBC? Fucksake.
 
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vimothy

yurp
Where does your reflexive must-defend-Israel response come from? It's clear to anyone who cares to open their eyes and ears that Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza. Splitting hairs over white phosphorus is not going to persuade anyone here that Israel is somehow acting in justified 'self-defence'.

Thank you for that contribution to the debate. The fact that Israel is involved has precisely no bearing on the legality of their arms, operation or on any individual incidents (not that we are in much position to decide the legality of the latter two). I’m not exactly sure how it is “clear to anyone who cares to open their eyes that Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza.” Similarly, I’m not sure how this is related to my argument – except, a la droid, to uncharitably suggest that I am somehow defending Israel’s actions, when I have in fact registered my disgust further upthread. The moral and strategic bankruptcy of Israel’s war on Gaza is not the subject of discussion. Rather, it is the legality of WP.

Nevertheless, given that a cursory scan through the literature might suggest quite the opposite, it is reassuring that issues of international law and jus in bello are so easily resolved.

I am also glad that we now agree that WP, despite the initial posts (“When used... in open areas WP is not classed as a chemical weapon”; “We know from all of this evidence that Israel have used WP”), and as per the exemptions written into Protocol III of the CCCW, is not illegal in civilian areas if used to provide effects in which its incendiary properties are incidental (such as smoke and signalling).

If Israeli forces were targeting enemy troops using air-dropped rounds in which WP was used specifically for its incendiary properties (for instance, in an anti-personnel device) in civilian areas, it would indeed constitute a war crime (see Protocol III). In addition, jus in bello is such that incendiary devices are only permissible for use against enemy troops in the open if other weapons will not suffice; otherwise, it is a war crime. Furthermore, if Israeli forces were deliberately targeting civilians, it would also constitute a war crime, always, regardless of the type of munition used (see list of customary rules of IHL, here).

Since deliberate targeting of civilians is both clearly a war crime regardless of munition used (and thus irrelevant to the point I was trying make so many posts ago), and impossible for a few anonymous sock-puppets on a dubstep discussion board over 2000 miles away to ascertain, there doesn’t seem to be much more to say about it at present.

And as the type of munition used is obviously not illegal, and the deliberate targeting of civilians obviously is regardless of munition, the real issue (insofar as we are interested in this limited aspect of jus in bello and not in any of the other probably much more relevant and suspect aspects of Operation Cast Lead, such as the widening of the definition of combatant and the consequential narrowing of the definition of collateral damage, or in any of the other related and equally suspect aspects of Operation Cast Lead with regards to jus ad bellum) is whether Israeli actions in specific incidents violate the basic IHL rules of proportionality (relative to the expected military gain) and discrimination (between civilian and military targets). In order to make a judgement, we – someone, at least – would need access to Israeli operational planning, targeting procedure and available intelligence for those specific incidents. There is simply no way to a priori decide that any incident violates the laws of war because it involves WP in an area of civilian concentration.

What I will say regarding the incident at the UN school is that there is clearly a legally acceptable explanation. If the Israelis really did think they were firing at militants, then use of WP to produce smoke is not proscribed insofar as smoke would aid Israeli targeting and inhibit the militants from returning fire (and there are obviously targets for the militants to fire at, because someone must have been firing the WP rounds). Nevertheless, none of this allows us to make an a priori judgement in either direction. Did its use here violate the basic principles of IHL? We have no access to the relevant information and thus no way of knowing. All we can do is guess. (Of course, none of this is a reflection on the legality of any other specific incident or the operation as a whole).

So, for Israel’s use of WP at the UN school there are at least three possible explanations, each with different implications with regards to the laws of war:

  1. Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians and were therefore acting in clear violation of IHL.
  2. Israeli forces targeted militants using WP rounds, but due to factors in the planning or execution of the attack, violated the basic proportionality and/or discrimination principles of IHL.
  3. Israeli forces targeted militants using WP rounds, and did not violate the basic principles of IHL.
If none of this is a judgement on the legality of any other common or specific aspect of the war, it is certainly not a moral judgement on the incident, the war itself or on war in general (a monstrous and highly offensive suggestion). International law will not solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It does not take sides. It does not, has not and will not prevent wars from happening, nor will it prevent them from being horrible and hellish events where misery, suffering and death are forced upon the undeserving and the innocent. Although I can find no hard figures, I am willing to bet that immediate fatalities from WP do not exceed 1% of total deaths. The vast majority of Palestinians have been killed by weapons explicitly designed to kill (regardless of intent when the trigger is pulled), not by the chemical Israel uses to produce smoke. This is hardly surprising, yet this distracting debate is playing out much the same way in the blogosphere, wholly predictable and wholly entrenched on either side. Given the ongoing conflicts in, to name but three, the Great Lakes region (excellent thread, BTW), Sudan and Sri Lanka (Sri Lankan forces recently captured the final LTTE stronghold), it is a great shame that the same enthusiasm does not carry over to other equally pressing events.

think you better shut up vimothy. you look stupid now.

Not for the first time, and not, I trust, for the last.

You win at teh internets, luka.
 
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D

droid

Guest
I’m not exactly sure how it is “clear to anyone who cares to open their eyes that Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza.”

Except of course if you read or watch the news or human rights reports, listen to the reams of testimony from witnesses, doctors and neutrals on the ground etc... you would come to this conclusion as it is clear that Israel used indiscriminate force, fired on medical personnel, bombed and shelled hospitals, schools and UN facilities, denied access of wounded to medical care... to give just a few examples from the hundreds available (some of which I have linked to upthread) :

Gaza detainees held bound for days

...According to the organizations, the detainees suffered from hunger, were not allowed to relieve themselves, "and worse even – some of them were being held near tanks and in war zones in blatant violation of international humanitarian law."...

Israeli troops killed Gaza children carrying white flag, witnesses say

...The allegation is one of at least five such white flag incidents that human rights investigators are looking into across the Gaza Strip. It's part of a growing pattern of alleged abuses that have raised concerns that some Israeli soldiers may have committed war crimes during their 22-day military campaign in Gaza...

Israel accused of executing parents in front of children in Gaza

...One nine-year-old boy said his father had been shot dead in front of him despite surrendering to Israeli soldiers with his hands in the air.

Another youngster described witnessing the deaths of his mother, three brothers and uncle after the house they were in was shelled.

He said his mother and one of his siblings had been killed instantly, while the others bled to death over a period of days.

A psychiatrist treating children in the village of Zeitoun on the outskirts of Gaza City, where the alleged incidents took place, described the deaths as a "massacre"...

Notes from Palestine

...There are so many stories to tell from our first day in Gaza. So much pain and destruction. But there is one story in particular that I think the world needs to hear. I met a mother who was at home with her ten children when Israeli soldiers entered the house. The soldiers told her she had to choose five of her children to 'give as a gift to Israel.' As she screamed in horror they repeated the demand and told her she could choose or they would choose for her. Then these soldiers murdered five of her children in front of her. Today I learned that the concept of 'Jewish morality' is truly dead...

Vimothy said:
Similarly, I’m not sure how this is related to my argument – except, a la droid, to uncharitably suggest that I am somehow defending Israel’s actions, when I have in fact registered my disgust further upthread. The moral and strategic bankruptcy of Israel’s war on Gaza is not the subject of discussion.

Could you point out your 'disgust' at Israels actions? i must've missed it.

Tea is OTM when he refers to your 'reflexive' support. The arguments you've made here about the immediate cause of this conflict (Hamas broke the ceasefire), the long term causes and context (rocket attacks), the use of WP (its only a smokescreen) are explicit echoes of Israeli propaganda - right out of the Hasbara playbook. In some cases they match official Israeli statements almost word for word, and certainly constitute a 'defense' of israel's actions - though coming from someone who has obviously internalised this point of view.

And forgive me for being 'uncharitable' about your pro-Israel stance, but you have made some absolutely appalling statements (which rival the likes of Dershowitz) about Israel/Palestine on this board, and in combination with many of the arguments you've made here it seems clear where your sympathies lie, despite your protestations to the contrary.

I am also glad that we now agree that WP, despite the initial posts (“When used... in open areas WP is not classed as a chemical weapon”; “We know from all of this evidence that Israel have used WP”), and as per the exemptions written into Protocol III of the CCCW, is not illegal in civilian areas if used to provide effects in which its incendiary properties are incidental (such as smoke and signalling).

OK, so you have now backed down on your argument that it is the design of the round that counts? it is now the effects of the round as I have been saying all along?

This is like pulling teeth. :slanted:

According to HRW (again) this is still not strictly accurate.

Human Rights Watch believes that the use of white phosphorus in densely populated areas of Gaza violates the requirement under international humanitarian law to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian injury and loss of life. This concern is amplified given the technique evidenced in media photographs of air-bursting white phosphorus projectiles. Air bursting of white phosphorus artillery spreads 116 burning wafers over an area between 125 and 250 meters in diameter, depending on the altitude of the burst, thereby exposing more civilians and civilian infrastructure to potential harm than a localized ground burst.

And if it affects civilians it can be classed as a chemical weapon. Once again:

droid said:
According to the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and Use of Chemical Weapons, the definition of a chemical weapon includes:

“any chemical which through its chemical action on life processes can cause death, temporary incapacitation or permanent harm”

There is also the case of the use of WP on the UN compound where it was used to destroy some of the thousands of tonnes of food and aid stored there - consistent with Israeli policy to cause 'pain' to the civilian population of Gaza.

Furthermore, if Israeli forces were deliberately targeting civilians, it would also constitute a war crime, always, regardless of the type of munition used (see list of customary rules of IHL,

OK, now we're getting somewhere. And if used against civilians in this manner, it would be accurate to describe it as a chemical weapon, as I stated in the initial post to which you took offense.

Cont...
 
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D

droid

Guest
Since deliberate targeting of civilians is both clearly a war crime regardless of munition used (and thus irrelevant to the point I was trying make so many posts ago), and impossible for a few anonymous sock-puppets on a dubstep discussion board over 2000 miles away to ascertain, there doesn’t seem to be much more to say about it at present.

LOL. A 'dubstep' board. Woebot would be spinning in his retirement home.

But yes, lets stop discussing whether or not a 'democracy' which receives 10's of millions of pounds worth of arms from Britain annually is using a chemical weapon against a population trapped in a cage.

In order to make a judgement, we – someone, at least – would need access to Israeli operational planning, targeting procedure and available intelligence for those specific incidents. There is simply no way to a priori decide that any incident violates the laws of war because it involves WP in an area of civilian concentration.

Uh-Huh. Except of course that there were maybe hundreds of WP shells fired over densely populated areas of Gaza, that most human rights organisations and the UN seem to disagree, that Israel's well documented contempt of civilian life indicates that it's likely, and of course, it is almost impossible to gain access to all of this information in most cases of war crimes, and yet that judgment has been made time and again for 'official enemies' based on the results of military actions on the ground.

But yes, despite the reams of evidence, let's give Israel the benefit of the doubt eh?

So, for Israel’s use of WP at the UN school there are at least three possible explanations, each with different implications with regards to the laws of war:

  1. Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians and were therefore acting in clear violation of IHL.
  2. Israeli forces targeted militants using WP rounds, but due to factors in the planning or execution of the attack, violated the basic proportionality and/or discrimination principles of IHL.
  3. Israeli forces targeted militants using WP rounds, and did not violate the basic principles of IHL.

So in the first 2 of your scenarios Israel would be guilt of using chemical weapons.

I would also like to suggest a 4th scenario:

  • Israel deliberately used WP smoke rounds on civilians seeking refuge in order to spread the maximum amount of terror and cause 'pain' to the population, whilst allowing them to retain a facade of legality in its use.

Even a cursory glance at Human rights reports testify that Israel has a policy of deliberately targeting civilians, and of using indiscriminate force against civilians. To give just a tiny sample, I refer you to HRW's: Investigation into the Unlawful Use of Force in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Northern Israel(New York, 2000)

“The organization found a pattern of repeated Israeli use of excessive lethal force during clashes between its security forces and Palestinian demonstrators in situations where demonstrators were unarmed and posed no threat of death or serious injury to the security forces or to others. In cases that HRW investigated where gunfire by Palestinian security forces or armed protesters was a factor, use of lethal force by the IDF was indiscriminate and not directed at the source of the threat, in violation of international law
enforcement standards” (p. 1).a

Amnesty Internationals: Excessive Use of Lethal Force (London, 2000)
“[T]he majority of people killed were taking part in demonstrations where stones were the only weapon used.... A large proportion of those injured and killed included children
usually present and often among those throwing stones during demonstrations. Bystanders, people within their homes and ambulance personnel were also killed. Many persons were apparently killed by poorly targeted lethal fire; others...appear, on many occasions, to have been deliberately targeted. In many of the locations where children were
killed there was no imminent danger to life nor reasonable expectation of future danger”
(pp. 5–6).b

And B’Tselems: Trigger Happy: Unjustified Shooting and Violation of the Open-Fire Regulations during the al-Aqsa Intifada (Jerusalem, 2002)

“[Open-fire] regulations apparently enable firing in situations where there is no clear and present danger to life, or even in situations where there is no life-threatening danger at
all” (p. 7).c

“[T]he Military Police investigations unit has opened almost no investigations into cases
where soldiers fired in violation of the Regulations.... The Military Police investigations that were initiated were not frank and serious attempts to reach the truth.... n only two cases were indictments filed for unjustified shooting, and they were filed more than a year after the incidents occurred”
(pp. 11–13).d

“[R]egulations...permit soldiers to open fire, automatically, at any Palestinian who approaches areas in the Gaza Strip referred to as ‘danger zones.’... In effect, it constitutes a death sentence for every person who approaches, whether deliberately or by mistake, a settlement’s fence, certain roads, or the fence along the border.... An order of this kind also completely ignores the fact that many Palestinians try to sneak into Israel to go to work and not to injure Israeli soldiers or civilians” (pp. 39–41).


Apart from mountains of evidence of Israeli targeting of civilians, such as multiple accounts of children being shot by snipers There have also been countless statements (ala Friedman) from Israeli diplomats, military personnel and politicians that the targeting of civilians is an integral part of Israeli policy. to give just a few examples:

Abbas Eban: ...“the rational prospect, ultimately fulfilled, that afflicted populations [i.e., civilians deliberately targeted] would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities.” ("Morality and Warfare," Jerusalem Post, August 16, 1981)

Areil Sharon: "...The Palestinians must be hit and it must be very painful: we must cause them losses, victims, so that they feel the heavy price." (Matt Rees, "Streets Red With Blood," Time Magazine, March 10, 2002)

Ehud Barak: "If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
( Associated Press, November 16, 2000)

If none of this is a judgement on the legality of any other common or specific aspect of the war, it is certainly not a moral judgement on the incident, the war itself or on war in general (a monstrous and highly offensive suggestion).

:rolleyes: As monstrous as the suggestion that 'Palestinians don't love their children'?

International law will not solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Certainly not when Israel has been consistently ignoring it for 40 years, and the one nation capable of coercing it to obey international law supports its actions diplomatically, militarily and economically and is itself a massive violator of International law.

In short - international law should be able to solve this conflict, but it is seen by Israel, the US and its defenders as being irrelevant as these states alone have the right to ignore it.

It does not take sides. It does not, has not and will not prevent wars from happening, nor will it prevent them from being horrible and hellish events where misery, suffering and death are forced upon the undeserving and the innocent. Although I can find no hard figures, I am willing to bet that immediate fatalities from WP do not exceed 1% of total deaths. The vast majority of Palestinians have been killed by weapons explicitly designed to kill (regardless of intent when the trigger is pulled), not by the chemical Israel uses to produce smoke.

Uh-huh. But some Palestinians have been killed and wounded by WP, and given the hellish effects of this munition and the general international opprobrium amongst all sane people on the use of chemical weapons against civilians it is relevant.

This is hardly surprising, yet this distracting debate is playing out much the same way in the blogosphere, wholly predictable and wholly entrenched on either side. Given the ongoing conflicts in, to name but three, the Great Lakes region (excellent thread, BTW), Sudan and Sri Lanka (Sri Lankan forces recently captured the final LTTE stronghold), it is a great shame that the same enthusiasm does not carry over to other equally pressing events.

Entrenched you say? :rolleyes: The other point you raise is hardly relevant here, but I will address it in another thread.

Craner said:
this is essential reading right now.

Not to be uncharitable, but I would suggest that a book from an author who is a member of the conservative think tank the Jewish Policy Center (whish gives: "[F]ull support to Israel in its long war for security in the Middle East") and a commentator for Fox news who sees the conflict through the lens of 'anti-terrorism', may not give anything other than a propagandistic picture of Palestinians.
 
D

droid

Guest
Cos if you don't understand that the palestinians have brought this on themslves by voting Hamas, the 'objective' truth is that you hate Jews. :confused:

Or something.

The BBC thing is absolutely baffling, and obviously a reaction to fatuous accusations of 'liberal bias'. One thing that has been highlighted in their bizarre justification of 'retaining impartiality', is that they are quite obviously not impartial when it comes to Israel/Palestine, a conclusion supported by academic study:

Bad News From Israel (University Of Glasgow 2004): Some Major Findings:

1. There is a preponderance of official ‘Israeli perspectives’, particularly on BBC 1, where Israelis were interviewed or reported over twice as much as Palestinians. On top of this, US politicians who support Israel were very strongly featured. They appeared more than politicians from any other country and twice as much as those from Britain.

2. TV news says almost nothing about the history or origins of the conflict. The great majority of viewers depended on this news as their main source of information. The gaps in their knowledge closely paralleled the ‘gaps’ in the news. Most did not know that the Palestinians had been forced from their homes and land when Israel was established in 1948. In 1967 Israel occupied by force the territories to which the Palestinian refugees had moved. Most viewers did not know that the Palestinians subsequently lived under Israeli military rule or that the Israelis took control of key resources such as water, and the damage this did to the Palestinian economy. Without explanations being given on the news, there was great confusion amongst viewers even about who was ‘occupying’ the occupied territories. Some understood ‘occupied’ to mean that someone was on the land (as in a bathroom being occupied) so they thought that the Palestinians were the occupiers. Many saw the conflict as a sort of border dispute between two countries fighting over land between them. As one viewer put it:

The impression I got (from news) was that the Palestinians had lived around about that area and now they were trying to come back and get some more land for themselves - I didn’t realise they had been driven out of places in wars previously.

3. Journalists gave different views on why there was so little explanation on the news. George Alagiah from the BBC stressed the problem of time:

In depth it takes a long time, but we’re constantly being told that the attention span of our average viewer is about twenty seconds and if we don’t grab people - and we’ve looked at the figures - the number of people who shift channels around in my programme now six o’clock, there’s a movement of about three million people in that first minute, coming in and out.

Lindsey Hilsum from Channel 4 News also commented on how difficult it was to report in a controversial area:

With a conflict like this, nearly every single fact is disputed, I think ‘Oh God, the Palestinians say this and the Israelis say that…’ I know it’s a question of interpretation so I have to say what both sides think and I think sometimes that stops us from giving the background we should be giving.

The book also examines other factors in production such as lobbying and public relations by both sides.

4. Because there was not account of historical events such as the Palestinians losing their homes, there was a tendency for viewers to see the problems as “starting ” with Palestinian action. On the news, Israeli actions tended to be explained and contextualised - they were often shown as merely “responding ” to what had been done to them by Palestinians (in the 2001 samples they were six times as likely to be presented as “retaliating ” or in some way responding than were the Palestinians). This apparently influenced many viewers to blame Palestinians for the conflict, as in these comments from two 20 year olds:

You always think of the Palestinians as being really aggressive because of the stories you hear on the news… I always think the Israelis are fighting back against the bombings that have been done to them.

I wasn’t under the impression that Israeli borders had changed or that they had taken land from other people - I thought it was more a Palestinian aggression than it was Israeli aggression.


Some people disputed such views but they tended to cite alternative sources of information other than the television news.

5. In news reporting there was a tendency to present Israeli settlements in the occupied territories as vulnerable communities, rather than as having a role in imposing the occupation. But as the Israeli historian Avi Shlaim has written, they have a key military and strategic function. They have been built on hilltops to give a commanding position and their occupants are often heavily armed. The Israeli human rights group, B’Tselem, has pointed to its role in attacking Palestinians in attempts to seize land. Most viewers knew very little of this - one describes his surprise at learning that the settlements controlled over 40% of the West Bank:

I had absolutely no idea it was that percentage… I saw them as small embattled and surrounded by hostile Palestinians - that’s entirely thanks to watching the television news.

6. There was a strong emphasis on Israeli casualties on the news, relative to Palestinians (even though Palestinians had around 2-3 times the number of deaths as Israelis). In one week in March 02 which the BBC reported as having the most Palestinian casualties since the start of the intifada, there was actually more coverage on the news of Israeli deaths. There were also differences in the language used by journalists for Israelis and Palestinians - words such as ‘atrocity’, ‘brutal murder’, ‘mass murder’, ‘savage cold blooded killing’, ‘lynching’ and ‘slaughter’ were used about Israeli deaths but not Palestinian. The word ‘terrorist’ was used to describe Palestinians by journalists but when an Israeli group was reported as trying to bomb a Palestinian school, they were referred to as ‘extremists’ or ‘vigilantes’ (BBC 1 lunch time news and ITV main news 5/03/02). TV News coverage influenced some viewers to believe most deaths had been Israeli as in these comments about the reporting of suicide bombs:

I remembered it was the suicide bombers - they are the one who go in and take maybe a whole busload and I thought it would be more Israelis.

And this is from a viewer who believed the Israelis had five times as many casualties as Palestinians:

I would imagine it’s going to be more casualties on the Israeli side, but it’s purely from television - that’s where I get my info from.

1. The journalists and researchers also looked at issues of cultural difference - They asked viewers if they ‘saw’ conflicts in terms of who they identified with? Do we sympathise immediately with people who look and sound like us and reject the views of people who look ‘strange’? The research showed that our perceptions of others are affected by such factors but the journalists wanted to know what they should do about it. Should they intervene to help audiences ‘see through’ cultural difference by appealing to more universal values, e.g. concern for human suffering or loss – and should this be done in the name of balance? This is explored in a number of fascinating exchanges between journalists.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
In short - international law should be able to solve this conflict, but it is seen by Israel, the US and its defenders as being irrelevant as these states alone have the right to ignore it.

...

Not to be uncharitable, but I would suggest that a book from an author who is a member of the conservative think tank the Jewish Policy Center (whish gives: "[F]ull support to Israel in its long war for security in the Middle East") and a commentator for Fox news who sees the conflict through the lens of 'anti-terrorism', may not give anything other than a propagandistic picture of Palestinians.

i apologise Droid for this sounds off-topic and i know you don't mean the first paragraph in the way it almost sounds i am here inferring but i want to be clear and have my two c that it goes without saying many states are able to bend international law to their will - eg China covering for Sudan, Zimbabwe’s enablers, some of the sorry sovereign members of recent UN rights bodies etc. etc. - not just Israel, the USA and their closest allies (though this statement does not imply i am defending/minimising things Israel, the USA or close American allies do).

as for Craner's book link, yes, come now Oliver, the book you linked to apparently had a foreword from Daniel Pipes (so said the Amazon page), thus rendering it worthless overall

;)
 
D

droid

Guest
i apologise Droid for this sounds off-topic and i know you don't mean the first paragraph in the way it almost sounds i am here inferring but i want to be clear and have my two c that it goes without saying many states are able to bend international law to their will - eg China covering for Sudan, Zimbabwe’s enablers, some of the sorry sovereign members of recent UN rights bodies etc. etc. - not just Israel, the USA and their closest allies (though this statement does not imply i am defending/minimising things Israel, the USA or close American allies do).

as for Craner's book link, yes, come now Oliver, the book you linked to apparently had a foreword from Daniel Pipes (so said the Amazon page), thus rendering it worthless overall

;)

I agree Scott, and I didn't mean to imply that Israel and the US are alone in ignoring international law, rather that no other states do so as egregiously whilst also trumpeting their respect for, and defense of, the values embodied in IL in respect to the violations of other states.

Also - I think the US is almost unique in its contempt for IL - specifically in the case of the 1986 world court judgment against them with regard to Nicaragua, where it simply stated that the court had no jurisdiction over the US.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
yeah the BBC is being craven and mealy-mouthed even by their standards.

at first i was going to condemn it/brush it off as their even handedness (their reasoning has a logic that is consistent with internal BBC logic) until someone on this board or another board somewhere yesterday (i forget where) told me about other DEC appeals they have screened.

in some welcome news: reporting on Ban Ki-moon launching an appeal from Davos they note


The Beeb often sort of reminds me of this Onion classic
ACLU Defends Nazis' Right To Burn Down ACLU Headquarters
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
I agree Scott, and I didn't mean to imply that Israel and the US are alone in ignoring international law, rather that no other states do so as egregiously whilst also trumpeting their respect for, and defense of, the values embodied in IL in respect to the violations of other states.

Also - I think the US is almost unique in its contempt for IL - specifically in the case of the 1986 world court judgment against them with regard to Nicaragua, where it simply stated that the court had no jurisdiction over the US.

thanks for clearing that up Droid, a well argued first paragraph indeed.

i can think of other states that trumpet themselves (if you're ever in need of a black laugh on a slow day just check out the official website for the govt of Equatorial Guinea ..) but you are of course correct about the over arching reach of the US and example they can (or, er, can't) set, which makes them different in kind in many respects
 

hucks

Your Message Here
at first i was going to condemn it/brush it off as their even handedness (their reasoning has a logic that is consistent with internal BBC logic) until someone on this board or another board somewhere yesterday (i forget where) told me about other DEC appeals they have screened.


Do you have any more on this, out of curiosity?

Edit: Sorry, I see you say you've forgotten. Well, if you happen to remember...
 
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