Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[padraig (u.s.)]

Regardless of what happens now, Hamas' ruthlessness and Israel's catastrophic security failures have shattered long held assumptions about the conflict and Israel's security and control capabilities. The symbolism of a successful attack against a seemingly untouchable enemy is immense, especially on the anniversary of Yom Kippur. It has shades of the cross border fedayeen raids prior to Black September and has the potential to enflame Arab public opinion across the entire region and spark a widespread rebellion, and ofc, it commands significant popular support even from those Palestinians who oppose Hamas politically, which is no surprise when you consider how thoroughly those people have been ground into the dirt by the occupation and how little they have left to lose.

This I don't quite agree with. Lebanon, the Intifadas, and Lebanon again all proved that Israel isn't untouchable. Not in this way, granted. However, the oncoming massive reprisal will surely be followed by an enormously focused increase on security. Like, this almost certainly won't happen again. It will be a singular event that will join terms like Kfar Etzion in national memory.

The fedayeen raids as far as I know never reached anything like this scale.

Idk if I agree about a regional popular uprising either. Idk if most non-Palestianian Arabs care enough about Palestinian liberation to truly risk anything of their own (see also: Americans and Ukraine, or going back Irish-Americans and the IRA, etc). I wouldn't even be surprised if the Isr-SA deal does go thru despite this. I don't think MBS cares about Palestinians at all. I could see enough popular discontent that it's untenable for him. Uprisings I doubt.

Palestinians themselves, esp those in Gaza, absolutely. Israeli govt has left them no options, so it's no surprise they'd support this bullshit, and Israel has no one but itself to blame for that.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

It's the inevitability of it all thats so depressing. Im sure Ive said this before, but it was only a matter of time. And next time round it will probably be a mini-nuke or a biological or chemical weapon in a major city.

It could be NBC weapons this time around, you never know

Tho if I'm the Revolutionary Guard/whoever, I'm doing everything in my power to stop any Palestinian militants from procuring them. If there's ever NBC attack in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, Tehran is almost certainly next.

 

[Mr. Tea]

So many "you're all for Palestinian liberation until it gets real" keyboard warrior type posts. Ironically it's the exact flipside of disingenuously conflating anti-semitism and anti-Zionism.

You mean in terms of conflating being pro-Palestine in general with being pro-Hamas in particular?

 

[droid]

This I don't quite agree with. Lebanon, the Intifadas, and Lebanon again all proved that Israel isn't untouchable. Not in this way, granted. However, the oncoming massive reprisal will surely be followed by an enormously focused increase on security. Like, this almost certainly won't happen again. It will be a singular event that will join terms like Kfar Etzion in national memory.

The fedayeen raids as far as I know never reached anything like this scale.

Idk if I agree about a regional popular uprising either. Idk if most non-Palestianian Arabs care enough about Palestinian liberation to truly risk anything of their own (see also: Americans and Ukraine, or going back Irish-Americans and the IRA, etc). I wouldn't even be surprised if the Isr-SA deal does go thru despite this. I don't think MBS cares about Palestinians at all. I could see enough popular discontent that it's untenable for him. Uprisings I doubt.

Palestinians themselves, esp those in Gaza, absolutely. Israeli govt has left them no options, so it's no surprise they'd support this bullshit, and Israel has no one but itself to blame for that.

Well, the strategic narrative is already there, the intent to derail the Israeli-Saudi detente. There is still significant popular support amongst Arab populations for Palestine. Im not suggesting a mass uprising, but there will, undoubtedly be a regional reaction of some kind, especially when Israel retaliates in its usual manner.

 

[version]

Ex-IDF general likens military control of West Bank to Nazi Germany

Amiram Levin accuses the IDF of being a 'partner in war crimes' when it stands by as settler extremists attack Palestinians, says situation in West Bank is 'absolute apartheid'

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

You mean in terms of conflating being pro-Palestine in general with being pro-Hamas in particular?

Basically yes

But more specifically, saying that if you criticize this action, you aren't actually for Palestinian liberation. Where usually there'd be a line drawn between say, throwing rocks or even shooting at soldiers, and shooting and kidnapping civilians at a music festival, I've seen at least dozens of totally uncritical takes, with many views/likes many from surprising places. I've also seen more nuanced takes saying something like "This is bad/unjustifiable, but it's primarily Israel/U.S. fault for the conditions + last 60 years of occupation" and that's I think a reasonable position. But to just viva la resistance or hasta la victoria siempre, I mean, no.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

there will, undoubtedly be a regional reaction of some kind, especially when Israel retaliates in its usual manner.

Sure. I just don't think it will kick off Arab Spring 2.0.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The obvious retort to the civilian angle is that Israel frequently kills civilians. Yes, and it's wrong. It doesn't make this right.

Ex-IDF general likens military control of West Bank to Nazi Germany

Amiram Levin accuses the IDF of being a 'partner in war crimes' when it stands by as settler extremists attack Palestinians, says situation in West Bank is 'absolute apartheid'

www.timesofisrael.com

Settler fanatics are a plague on Israeli society and the govt's decades-long inability, for domestic political reasons, to deal with or even restrain them is a chickens coming home to roost situation.

 

[chava]

Hard to have much sympathy for anyone expressing even the slightest support for Hamas. The real neo-nazis show their face around European now.

 

[chava]

I've also seen more nuanced takes saying something like "This is bad/unjustifiable, but it's primarily Israel/U.S. fault for the conditions + last 60 years of occupation" and that's I think a reasonable position.

For kidnapping, killing and torturing civilians and even bragging about on social media? Sorry, mate this is a terrorist attack on par or even worse with Bataclan. There's is no "historic" justification for this unless you're a full blown neo nazi.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Hard to have much sympathy for anyone expressing even the slightest support for Hamas. The real neo-nazis show their face around European now.

I don't doubt some on the far right will be joining their comrades on the far left in cheering on Hamas, because they think the only good Israeli is a dead Israeli. But others will already have an pre-emptive boner for whatever brutal retaliation the IDF is preparing, because they view Israel - itself heading in an increasingly fascistic direction for some time now - as a bastion of civilization holding the dusky savage hordes at bay.

 

[Mr. Tea]

For kidnapping, killing and torturing civilians and even bragging about on social media? Sorry, mate this is a terrorist attack on par or even worse with Bataclan. There's is no "historic" justification for this unless you're a full blown neo nazi.

Do you get equally outraged when Israeli forces kill unarmed Palestinians? Because if you do, I've never seen it. And it happens much more often than the reverse. The asymmetry in the death toll speaks for itself.

 

[chava]

Do you get equally outraged when Israeli forces kill unarmed Palestinians? Because if you do, I've never seen it. And it happens much more often than the reverse. The asymmetry in the death toll speaks for itself.

I rarely see them posting this on social media and bragging about it. If you kill civilians I though the key issue was try to hide it from plain sight

 

[chava]

I don't doubt some on the far right will be joining their comrades on the far left in cheering on Hamas, because they think the only good Israeli is a dead Israeli. But others will already have an pre-emptive boner for whatever brutal retaliation the IDF is preparing, because they view Israel - itself heading in an increasingly fascistic direction for some time now - as a bastion of civilization holding the dusky savage hordes at bay.

Just keeping up with its neighbours I guess.

 

[HMGovt’s Glorious Return!]

Sam Harris talks a lot of shit, but he recently said that the moral difference comes down to understanding the answer to this question: what would each side do if they had the power to do it?

Now we know.

 

[droid]

lol, Sam Harris.

Israel has murdered one Palestinian child every 3 days for the last 21 years. So yeah, we know.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I rarely see them posting this on social media and bragging about it.

It's almost as if social media is driven primarily by outrage, with both algorithms and human users fine-tuning content to generate the most hate-clicks and engagement.

 

[droid]

Or perhaps it's just that some people's attention, knowledge and outrage is temporally limited to a single moment. Everything that happened before and afterwards can simply be dismissed without thought.

I sincerely doubt that the likes of Chava will be comparing Israel to neo-nazis as they slaughter thousands of innocents in the coming days and weeks, as they have done countless times in the past.

 

[chava]

Or perhaps it's just that some people's attention, knowledge and outrage is temporally limited to a single moment. Everything that happened before and afterwards can simply be dismissed without thought.

I sincerely doubt that the likes of Chava will be comparing Israel to neo-nazis as they slaughter thousands of innocents in the coming days and weeks, as they have done countless times in the past.

I don't defend the current Israeli regime. And Hamas (and Iran) fully the consequences when the attack was planned. They are not THAT stupid. As if they care about the Palestinian civilians at all..

 

[chava]

Sam Harris talks a lot of shit, but he recently said that the moral difference comes down to understanding the answer to this question: what would each side do if they had the power to do it?

Now we know.

When the jewish diaspora can't even feel safe in European cities you know which side you should be on