Since it's been a while since we had an Israel/Palestine thread...

[chava]

You really are catastrophically ignorant aren't you?

Israel kidnaps and imprisons about 700 Palestinian children every year, which I guess is some improvement over the 30+ year policy of systematically smashing the legs of Palestinian children, an extension of the official 'breaking the bones' policy implemented by Yitzhak Rabin during the first intifada.

Do you really want me to post examples of the thousands of mutilations, desecrations, rapes, the countless humiliations, the gleeful celebrations of atrocities, the endless calls for genocide, the kids in cages, the mothers and babies left to die in childbirth at checkpoints as teenage IDF soldiers look on and laugh?

Seriously, go and read a fucking book.

That last sentence is the quintessential twitter response from the holier-than-you brigade. Maybe you should stop watching Al-Jazeera then.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I am not living on my phone. You take a walk in my city, supposedly the 'safest city on earth', dressed up as a Orthodox Jew. Can you walk in safety? I doubt it. Then walk around the main square with a Hizb-ut-Tahrir flag or a chanting a Hamas phrase. No problem.

This is the all-purpose antisemitism thread: https://www.dissensus.com/threads/15015/page-24#post-436216

Nobody here is saying it's fine to beat up Orthodox Jews in Copenhagen, or whatever it is you're getting at, so can we try and keep this thread to the topic that it's meant to be on?

 

[droid]

I am not living on my phone. You take a walk in my city, supposedly the 'safest city on earth', dressed up as a Orthodox Jew. Can you walk in safety? I doubt it. Then walk around the main square with a Hizb-ut-Tahrir flag or a chanting a Hamas phrase. No problem.

lol. Jews cant even walk safely in Israeli cities without being stabbed for 'looking like arabs'.

Jewish Man Stabbed by Fellow Israeli in Botched Revenge Attack Denounces Ethnic Violence (Published 2015)

The episode was not the only case of mistaken identity reported this week in connection with nationalist attacks.

www.nytimes.com

 

[maxi]

I'm wondering how Hamas have managed to inflict this much damage, which is unprecedented. Just in terms of their resources and military strength I mean. Previously the attempts at any military opposition to Israel were largely symbolic, with homemade projectiles bouncing off buildings and causing virtually no damage. Which is unsurprising because of the absurdly strict land/sea/air blockade. I wonder what's changed recently?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Maybe you should stop watching Al-Jazeera then.

Or indeed other forms of hardcore antisemitic Islamist propaganda, such as, uh, one of Israel's most widely circulated newspapers, published in Tel Aviv for over a century:

They kill kids all the fucking time, you dimwit. Even Israeli newspapers report on it: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...his-year/00000188-aa5a-db59-a19a-fe7b87120000

 

[droid]

I'm wondering how Hamas have managed to inflict this much damage, which is unprecedented. Just in terms of their resources and military strength I mean. Previously the attempts at any military opposition to Israel were largely symbolic, with homemade projectiles bouncing off buildings and causing virtually no damage. Which is unsurprising because of the absurdly strict land/sea/air blockade. I wonder what's changed recently?

It's no huge mystery, they spent two years preparing and managed to develop techniques to bypass the most sophisticated surveillance state in history. In Korea and Vietnam they built entire cities underground in less time whilst under constant bombardment.

 

[Mr. Tea]

I'm wondering how Hamas have managed to inflict this much damage, which is unprecedented. Just in terms of their resources and military strength I mean. Previously the attempts at any military opposition to Israel were largely symbolic, with homemade projectiles bouncing off buildings and causing virtually no damage. Which is unsurprising because of the absurdly strict land/sea/air blockade. I wonder what's changed recently?

I can only assume Iran has massively stepped up both the quality and quantity of weapons it's supplying to Hamas. The general view is that it's intended to scupper the forthcoming Israel-KSA normalization of relations, perhaps by forcing the Saudi authorities to say "Well we can't endorse terrorism exactly, but in the long view this is all Israel's fault", which is basically what they have said.

 

[maxi]

It's no huge mystery, they spent two years preparing and managed to develop techniques to bypass the most sophisticated surveillance state in history. In Korea and Vietnam they built entire cities underground in less time whilst under constant bombardment.

they've never been able to do it before though so something must have changed

 

[droid]

I can only assume Iran has massively stepped up both the quality and quantity of weapons it's supplying to Hamas. The general view is that it's intended to scupper the forthcoming Israel-KSA normalization of relations, perhaps by forcing the Saudi authorities to say "Well we can't endorse terrorism exactly, but in the long view this is all Israel's fault", which is basically what they have said.

I dont see a huge amount of evidence of new weaponry on display here, even the number of rocket attacks are not hugely abnormal. Drones, paragliders, they're hardly advanced technology.

 

[chava]

I'm wondering how Hamas have managed to inflict this much damage, which is unprecedented. Just in terms of their resources and military strength I mean. Previously the attempts at any military opposition to Israel were largely symbolic, with homemade projectiles bouncing off buildings and causing virtually no damage. Which is unsurprising because of the absurdly strict land/sea/air blockade. I wonder what's changed recently?

It's no huge mystery, they spent two years preparing and managed to develop techniques to bypass the most sophisticated surveillance state in history. In Korea and Vietnam they built entire cities underground in less time whilst under constant bombardment.

Koreans and Vietnamese, it must be said, are/were much more organized and tenacious. Palestinian resistance hasn't exactly been highly sofisticated, until now perhaps. Rumours going around that this is intelligence fallout from the botched Iran Nuclear deal involving Robert Malley, but who knows.

 

[droid]

they've never been able to do it before though so something must have changed

Israel got complacent. Hamas learned through bitter experience and trial and error how to circumvent Israeli intelligence. I do agree though, that this wasnt supposed to be possible - which is one of the reasons it happened.

 

[chava]

I dont see a huge amount of evidence of new weaponry on display here, even the number of rocket attacks are not hugely abnormal. Drones, paragliders, they're hardly advanced technology.

They must have known there were no real opposition nearby

 

[droid]

Koreans and Vietnamese, it must be said, are/were much more organized and tenacious. Palestinian resistance hasn't exactly been highly sofisticated, until now perhaps. Rumours going around that this is intelligence fallout from the botched Iran Nuclear deal involving Robert Malloy, but who knows.

lol, try living under brutal occupation for a few decades and then come back and tell me about tenacity.

 

[chava]

Or indeed other forms of hardcore antisemitic Islamist propaganda, such as, uh, one of Israel's most widely circulated newspapers, published in Tel Aviv for over a century:

Haaretz is Israel answer to New York Times, for better or worse

 

[Mr. Tea]

I dont see a huge amount of evidence of new weaponry on display here, even the number of rocket attacks are not hugely abnormal. Drones, paragliders, they're hardly advanced technology.

Are the rockets not penetrating the supposedly super-duper Iron Dome system in unusual numbers, though? Or is it just getting overwhelmed by the sheer rate of fire?

 

[Mr. Tea]

Haaretz is Israel answer to New York Times, for better or worse

I'm aware it's a progressive publication, but I hardly think it's going to invent murdered Palestinian children just so progressive Israelis can feel good about feeling bad. The salient facts are that a huge percentage of people killed on the Palestinian side by Israel are also civilians, many of them are children, and that their casualties outnumber Israel's many times over.

 

[chava]

lol, try living under brutal occupation for a few decades and then come back and tell me about tenacity.

granted, you also need some organizational skills

 

[maxi]

I dont see a huge amount of evidence of new weaponry on display here, even the number of rocket attacks are not hugely abnormal. Drones, paragliders, they're hardly advanced technology.

I had the impression the rockets are more powerful than what they've used previously, but that might be wrong actually. I'm not seeing many reports of buildings in Israel actually destroyed, even though there are pictures of huge plumes of smoke. Whereas Gaza is already once again becoming a scene of rubble and debris.

It does seem that most of the damage from Hamas has been on the ground from the invasion. That in itself is unprecedented though. But the difference might be mainly strategic, the element of surprise and complacency you mentioned. Not read this article fully yet but it seems to provide some detail on that https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

For kidnapping, killing and torturing civilians and even bragging about on social media? Sorry, mate this is a terrorist attack on par or even worse with Bataclan. There's is no "historic" justification for this unless you're a full blown neo nazi.

I know your whole thing is being a RW edgelord, but read the fucking sentence please. It literally says "unjustifiable". That's why it's a -nuanced- position.

I'll try to dumb it down so you can understand

Murdering civilians at music festival == unjustifiable

Responsibility for the historical conditions that lead to the infinite bitterness driving that murder /= justification

E.g. it's possible to say "Israel has done many, many terrible and unjust things to Palestinians, including the killing of many civilians. However, none of that can justify this atrocity."

Further, you can say that the violence would almost certainly be massively decreased by a just deal for Palestinians. Hamas specifically thrives on Israeli oppression.

Finally, you can say that this atrocity does not justify the many, many Palestinian civilians who are about to die in the massive reprisal.

You understand how that works now? Nuance? Or do I need to dumb it down more?

 

[droid]

Are the rockets not penetrating the supposedly super-duper Iron Dome system in unusual numbers, though? Or is it just getting overwhelmed by the sheer rate of fire?

Yeah, I think it's just the sheer quantity.