Food 'n' Class

[Shonx]

I didn't quite realise the subconscious infiltration of my mind by food poncery. Having been brought up with a fairly dull diet but also being taught how to cook early on, I've found myself getting more into food. To be honest do enjoy Oliver and Ramsay's cullinary ideas, although I did realise that Saturday kitchen operated as a form of gastroporn for those too hungover to contemplate eating.

Think it's my upper-working/lower-middle class roots though, the internal dialogue on deciding whether to buy rocket or not can get quite schizo. Wasn't Jamie responsible for the popularity of that too - didn't we just use watercress before?

 

[don_quixote]

i don't think he's solely responsible for it, but possibly to some extent... i think with the greater amount of foreign travel nowadays we go to places and wonder why things they have there aren't at home? maybe. rocket is really really good though. i used to eat bags of it instead of crisps. which i guess is fairly health freaky.

and without wanting to divert totally from the topic; the ottolenghi cookbook. now that is something else. can't speak highly enough.

 

[nomadthethird]

Interesting to read Genome mentioned...it's also been well-established in the U.S. that African-Americans (men and women alike) suffer from heart disease/CV events at a far higher rate than their white counterparts. Some doctors and scientists suggest that this is due to poorer diets among poorer blacks, but the stats seem to hold even when you compare heart disease rates among similar income whites and blacks. This suggests that poor diet (which is assumed to be rooted, among other things, in poverty) is not the only factor contributing to this. Of course any garden-variety Sherlock will probably guess that overall "stress" levels have something to do with this...likewise with the lack of incentive to search far and wide for edible and affordable produce...

Yes I think people do tend to overlook the intensity of the psychological aspects - just because it's only in your head doesn't mean it is easy to get rid of. The lack of confidence shown by some people I've met is shocking - profoundly upsetting.

And certainly depression seems pretty rife (all the studies about valium / prozac being dished out routinely in some areas).

I've especially noticed from visiting myself and from observing family and friends from abroad that Europeans sometimes have a strange aversion to acknowledging that the brain and its attending functions can be (and frequently are) diseased just like any other organs can be (and frequently are...) Even harder for many to acknowledge, it seems, is the idea that personal, social and political circumstances may contribute to such diseases/disorders of the brain and exacerbate them.

 

[nomadthethird]

I can only imagine that big pharma will soon get the UK in its clutches and long gone will be the idea of healthy state-funded school lunch programs. In their place you'll find a bevy of pills to pop for the depression that comes from living the socially alienated life of the morbidly obese, some to compensate for the effects of a sedentary lifestyle and the strain on joints and muscles, some to control cholesterol levels, daily insulin injections after meals, the "comfortable" leg-pricking blood sugar monitors, gastric bypass surgery when all else fails, maybe a tummy tuck, breast lift, and extra skin removal if that procedure is successful...then maybe some meds to get you off the post-op painkillers you needed just to get back to work after using all your vacation time recouping from the bypass

Later you'd look forward to a pacemaker, a few arterial bypass surgeries, a million useless stress tests billed to your insurance company if you're lucky enough to have one...then if they're able to prop your lifeless body up with enough procedures past the point of it being feasible for you to live on your own or with your family, they'll get to bill your insurance or tap out your life savings to keep you on haldol in a nursing home till you kick...maybe some experimental Parkinson's or Alzheimer's drugs in the mix...

It's only a matter of time!

 

[IdleRich]

"I've especially noticed from visiting myself and from observing family and friends from abroad that Europeans sometimes have a strange aversion to acknowledging that the brain and its attending functions can be (and frequently are) diseased just like any other organs can be (and frequently are...)"

I think that, in the main, people's identity is tied up with what they perceive as their mind rather than their body - it's easy to accept that part of what they see as a machine being piloted by the brain is broken and needs repair than it is to accept that the pilot itself is damaged. Also, once you start acknowledging the possibility of the brain being ill and needing repair it raises the question of what identity actually is if it can be changed so easily by disease (and by medicine in the name of cure) - a scary thought for most I would say.

 

[nomadthethird]

I think that, in the main, people's identity is tied up with what they perceive as their mind rather than their body - it's easy to accept that part of what they see as a machine being piloted by the brain is broken and needs repair than it is to accept that the pilot itself is damaged. Also, once you start acknowledging the possibility of the brain being ill and needing repair it raises the question of what identity actually is if it can be changed so easily by disease (and by medicine in the name of cure) - a scary thought for most I would say.

Yeah I think this is exactly why. There's often a sort of Cartesian mind/body split that persists in a lot of people's thinking, even though science has progressed past dualism (another problem education could fix...) In the U.S. I think there's this added element of left-over Puritanical shame or distrust of the "lowly" bodily functions (esp sex organs and such) and elevation of "higher" faculties like cognition above the lowly functions...

 

[Numbers]

I just saw a bit on Youtube (first two episodes are entirely there, btw) and honestly, I don't get the criticism on this Jamie Oliver and his so-called experiment. Probably because I'm not from the UK.

Anyway, I am well aware of distinction wars, cultural hegemony and all the theoretical schemes you could apply here (Bourdieu's or others, development studies could have a nice say about this as well), but for fuck's sake: learning somebody to cook meat balls isn't exactly imposing high-cultural norms or is it?

I think nobody actually believes this show will catalyze any significant, lasting change in food habits (if it does, there is something terribly wrong about stardom in Britain), but at least it tries to organize people at grassroots level. I don't think that's so bad.

 

[IdleRich]

"Yeah I think this is exactly why. There's often a sort of Cartesian mind/body split that persists in a lot of people's thinking, even though science has progressed past dualism (another problem education could fix...) In the U.S. I think there's this added element of left-over Puritanical shame or distrust of the "lowly" bodily functions (esp sex organs and such) and elevation of "higher" faculties like cognition above the lowly functions... "

I'm sure this is right but why should there be a difference between the US and Europe I wonder. Which parts of Europe specifically by the way?

 

[nomadthethird]

I'm sure this is right but why should there be a difference between the US and Europe I wonder. Which parts of Europe specifically by the way?

For the same reason any difference between peoples exist: culture.

Well I was thinking of places I've been-- including Germany, France, the Netherlands, briefly Switzerland--and people I know well (mostly relatives) who live in Denmark, Italy, the UK, Spain.

EDIT: I suppose that many Americans are not at all averse to the idea that the brain can and often does malfunction, but many of them are at the mercy of their own ignorance + lazy internists who make psychiatric diagnoses that they do not have the medical qualifications to make. These are usually the same people who pop any miracle cure that comes down the pike.

 

[nomadthethird]

I just saw a bit on Youtube (first two episodes are entirely there, btw) and honestly, I don't get the criticism on this Jamie Oliver and his so-called experiment. Probably because I'm not from the UK.

Anyway, I am well aware of distinction wars, cultural hegemony and all the theoretical schemes you could apply here (Bourdieu's or others, development studies could have a nice say about this as well), but for fuck's sake: learning somebody to cook meat balls isn't exactly imposing high-cultural norms or is it?

I think nobody actually believes this show will catalyze any significant, lasting change in food habits (if it does, there is something terribly wrong about stardom in Britain), but at least it tries to organize people at grassroots level. I don't think that's so bad.

I think the criticism is mostly based on the fact that it's easy to criticize the disadvantaged for their self-destructive practices without actually doing anything on the level of policy and real political praxis to change the very circumstances that lead to these practices (most obviously, for example, lack of education and financial resources). It's easy to tell people how to eat like someone with money while you've got a book deal and TV promo junkets backing you. It would be much harder (and more welcomed by the working/lower middle classes) to effect actual change on a national level.

Talk is cheap, and so are PR stunts...

 

[don_quixote]

thing about tuesdays episode - pancetta and asparagus!! please!

 

[Shonx]

thing about tuesdays episode - pancetta and asparagus!! please!

"You might fink this is ponce food, but you'd be 'avin a bubble. Get cweative - you can substitute spam and celery for the main ingwedients and top it all off with some dairylea twiangles"

 

[mistersloane]

thing about tuesdays episode - pancetta and asparagus!! please!

It was kinda interesting that he wasn't being patronising in altering his tastes; I'd like to see him take on some more traditional UK recipes though. I don't understand what's wrong with prosciutto and asparagus though, normal people can eat yuppie food too.

 

[don_quixote]

but asparagus is hella expensive isn't it? especially at this time of year (admittedly it was at it's cheapest when it was being filmed in late may, but that's still £1.50ish for 9 or 10 stalks). it's hardly the best advertisement for healthy food and cooking for yourself is it?

 

[Shonx]

It was kinda interesting that he wasn't being patronising in altering his tastes; I'd like to see him take on some more traditional UK recipes though. I don't understand what's wrong with prosciutto and asparagus though, normal people can eat yuppie food too.

Yeah, I like the stuff and I'm not on that big a budget, but surely if he wants to get poor people eating more healthily then surely it would be better to show them how to make good food from cheap ingredients. I mean say for instance we went to sainsburys, we can get creamed coconut for 35p; basics sweet potatoes, peppers, onions and chillis; rice and buy some spices (which obviously can be used for future meals) and you can create a filling, tasty meal for well under a fiver.

If we look at a lot of cuisine from round the world, there's plenty of examples of food that are actually part of the diet of the indigenous poor which are not only cheap to make but also good on the taste buds. It's important to have food that excites the mouth to get people to view cooking as something other than part of the drudgery of survival, and this can be done quite cheaply with a bit of thought.

 

[crackerjack]

It wasn't all about teaching the poor to cook - one of his pupils was a cattle farmer who had a kitchen the size of my living room - and, though class related, it's also about the culture of cooking.

But yeah, I agree, we can all eat asparagus and parma ham now and then, but it's hardly practical as a staple for a family of 4 on a budget.

 

[mistersloane]

Yeah but...I mean that meal would work out at maybe, what, a fiver for two? 2.50 for two chicken breasts, a bit of prosciutto and cheese, asparagus in season you can get huge bundles for a quid...a fiver a day for two I think is pretty good going. Don't get me wrong, I know you can eat for a lot less, but when you break it down that's not too bad a meal, maybe especially for a meal that looks a bit swank.

I was weirded out too, I'm just trying to make sense of what he did and why. I'm sure everyone in the media isn't that deluded that they think people eat that every day...maybe they are...

 

[Shonx]

If I could actually be arsed to do the work, I would like to know the actual nutritional difference between the cheap ready meals and the more pricey ones, imagine that for the foodie pretentiousness they're not actually that much better for you given how much more they cost proportionately.

 

[crackerjack]

If I could actually be arsed to do the work, I would like to know the actual nutritional difference between the cheap ready meals and the more pricey ones, imagine that for the foodie pretentiousness they're not actually that much better for you given how much more they cost proportionately.

A mate of mine can quote the exact fat content of a Big Mac compared to a typical M&S sarnie. It's his hobby.

 

[Mr. Tea]

A mate of mine can quote the exact fat content of a Big Mac compared to a typical M&S sarnie. It's his hobby.

He's not really a 'mate', then, is he? More a sort of 'person you let hang around you to make you look cool by comparison'.