Producers: presets or four days perfecting a snare?
- Thread starter baboon2004
- Start date
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
To be honest, the idea of Fruity Loops as some sort of 21st century equivalent of using a cheap akai sampler with 4 seconds of 8 bit sample time and overdubbing on a 4 track tape machine is getting a bit silly - it's pretty much as fully featured a bit of kit as Cubase or Logic and for better or for worse a lot of people are using it to produce some very highly crafted music...
Exactly. For instance Spor uses fruityloops and his tunes are the epitome of overproduced 'sound design over content' dnb.
sodiumnightlife
Sweet Virginia
ramadanman uses fl too.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
And if you're very good, in two hours.
Burial, in fact, wrote his entire album in 10 minutes, while watching Neighbours and eating a Pot Noodle.
sodiumnightlife
Sweet Virginia
nah i don't think this is true. Things can take far longer than that, and even when they don't, it's all about the editing of the track, the cutting, snipping and changing. That's what takes the most time and is what makes something great I reckon.
Corpsey
bandz ahoy
Speaking of taking your time with production...
2 hr q+a with Moritz Von Oswald in which he talks about just that.
2 hr q+a with Moritz Von Oswald in which he talks about just that.
sodiumnightlife
Sweet Virginia
that interview is so good.
I think the second two uses of the word "good" aren't required there. Quality of a tune isn't dependent on technical ability.
Then it would read "If you're any good you should be able to get sounds and write a track..."
But surely even if you're shit you should be able to get SOME sounds and make A track.
That would be virtually meaningless. What did you mean?
I know what you want to say, but:
Quality of a tune is entirely dependent on technical ability if you allow the word "technique" to encomapss musicianship and composition technique and well as engineering.
Depends on your definition of "technical".
If you are any good at engineering you can get a good snare sound in half an hour rather than 4 days.
Same as if you are good at rapping you can get your vocals down in one take instead of all afternoon with another session tomorrow.
Plenty of awesome house, techno, rave and hiphop tracks were made in under a day.
I can understand wanting to get AMAZING sounds, I just reckon if you have some ability then you can do it fast. I cannot IMAGINE spending days on a snare sound.
Of course with modern techology, if you can get the song down and then spend an extra day coming up with amazing edits or tweaking the mix then of course it's worth it to make a better record. Of course spend time perfecting it.
But if you have an idea for a track and then spend four days on the snare, you will forget the inspration and vibe you had when the idea came.
This is why its worth learning technical stuff like how program synths, machines, how to play instruments etc. because then you can bash it down fast while it's fresh instead of losing the vibe while you try and tweak the kazoo preset.
Martin Dust
Techno Zen Master
Tell that to Phil Spector Edward 
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
I think you'll find he was actually using the Pot Noodle in preference to Ableton Live or Pro Tools, as it was a bit more crackly.
psherburne
Well-known member
But if you have an idea for a track and then spend four days on the snare, you will forget the inspration and vibe you had when the idea came.
This is why its worth learning technical stuff like how program synths, machines, how to play instruments etc. because then you can bash it down fast while it's fresh instead of losing the vibe while you try and tweak the kazoo preset.
This is why its worth learning technical stuff like how program synths, machines, how to play instruments etc. because then you can bash it down fast while it's fresh instead of losing the vibe while you try and tweak the kazoo preset.
The only problem here is that I'm not sure how closely it relates to most electronic producers' working methods. In my own experience (and I'm just guessing there are many others like me), there is no original idea that precedes the actual sonics. The process of "composition" always begins as an exercise in sound design -- whether that means collecting and chopping samples, or programming and tweaking sounds in my Machinedrum, or running sounds through a battery of effects, and layering and looping, etc. Whatever "music" is in the track derives directly from all those sounds and choices.
Once I've begun arranging, then yes, I will sometimes write, say, a bassline and then go through various presets looking for the most appropriate sound, which I'll then spend more time tweaking. I will often also use things like "placeholder" sounds for, say, hi-hats or snares, until I have time to go back and find or program better sound. But I find my most successful tracks are the ones that arise "organically," if you will, out of the original sound-design process.
This is a long way of saying, ain't nothing wrong with spending 4 days on a given sound if that's what the track needs.
which is fine in itself, but i think this thread arose because of the mentality perpetuated by certain producers, that perfect sonic engineering is the ultimate end goal of production, rather than generating emotion, momentum, innovation or whatever. because technical producers who spend four days on one snare very often forget to add things like say, ooh, good musicial ideas or emotion.
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
Absolutely. It's certainly possible to get both technical brilliance and emotion together (Luomo is one example who springs to mind), but, for most people, it's a pay-off between spending time designing sounds/mixing etc and actually writing the tunes/arranging etc.
"The process of "composition" always begins as an exercise in sound design." That's an interesting point, however - maybe I was thinking more of songs than of tracks, as my ideal end-point woudl be to write techno-inflected 'songs' in the style of 'Tessio' / Ada's 'Maps' rmx / 'Your Love' / lots of rave tunes (tho all obviously have tracky elements).
And that goal may be the problem in itself - I'm unsure whether to begin with the trackier sound design stuff or just sitting down and writing a song. Don't have too much time!
Anyways, think all of this is relevant at a time when people are complaining about funky house's rough and ready approach, as against most of dubstep's sonic perfectionism. Or that's the situation as I understand it! I'm definitely on the side of Roska/Apple et al....
hint
party record with a siren
The Kanye / Timbaland video demonstrates something significant I think. Kanye's not happy with the kick, so he sends the track back to be mixed 10 or 12 times. Finally they get Timbaland and his team involved and the answer is "use a different kick".
I think the school of "4 days tweaking" is in that first camp. Writing a track using certain sounds and then work on changing / enhancing those sounds through the mix process. Is this a "techno" thing? Your drums come from a certain drum machine, your bass comes from a certain synth, and these are the building blocks which must be sculpted to make them fit?
I'm in the second camp - find a sound from anywhere that works and requires minimal tweaking in the mix. I'll run through dozens of snares until I find one that suits the rhythm. That process might take place 4 days after the beat was written, but it only takes a few minutes. More of a "hip hop" way of working perhaps? Older than that, even. Use a different mic, use a different guitar, use a different snare drum, sit in a different place.
I think the school of "4 days tweaking" is in that first camp. Writing a track using certain sounds and then work on changing / enhancing those sounds through the mix process. Is this a "techno" thing? Your drums come from a certain drum machine, your bass comes from a certain synth, and these are the building blocks which must be sculpted to make them fit?
I'm in the second camp - find a sound from anywhere that works and requires minimal tweaking in the mix. I'll run through dozens of snares until I find one that suits the rhythm. That process might take place 4 days after the beat was written, but it only takes a few minutes. More of a "hip hop" way of working perhaps? Older than that, even. Use a different mic, use a different guitar, use a different snare drum, sit in a different place.
Slothrop
Tight but Polite
Although I'm not sure how much that's a real phenomenon and how much it's mainly just an idea that exists as a satisfying contrast with the rough and ready Funky approach...
Come to that - has anyone actually talked to Funky producers about production? Are they really knocking out three tunes a day or are they actually spending as long getting a ruff and bouncy conga sound as 2562 does on a reverbed dub stab?
I'm kind of cautious about jumping to conclusions about the production process based on my perceptions of the sound...