Apparently Barack "isn't black"

[nomadthethird]

I'm reminded of the still somewhat paranoid obsession with a 'homosexual gene' (those 'evolutionary psychologists' again), but no corresponding obsession with a 'heteronormative' gene, or a 'bisexual' gene, or a 'non-sexual' gene, or a 'trans-sexual' gene, or a 'transvestite' gene, with the scientific discourse itself anthropomorphizing 'sex' everywhere.

Yes. What 'de-ontologizes' all of this too - whether sex or race - is, ironically, biogenetics itself, because if genetic (re)engineering is able to reduce the human psyche to an object of manipulation ( what someone like Heidegger feared as the 'danger' inherent in modern science and technology), to fundamentally reconfigure and reduce a human being to a natural object whose physical features can be altered, then it is not just humanity which is retrospectively problematized and undermined, but nature itself is lost, is 'denaturalized.' It is not just sex and race, as (voided) master signifiers, that then destitute the discursive consistency of gender and 'skin colour', respectively, but nature itself can longer be invoked as humanism's stabilizing MacGuffin (that 'unfathomable dimension of ourselves' we call 'human nature' goes the way of the present financial meltdown). Those who perceive a basic incompatibility between their biological and psychic-discursive identities can already directly manipulate such a symbolic blockage: for instance undergoing a sex-change if someone believes their gender to be 'trapped' in the wrong sex (not so easy in relation to 'colour', as Michael Jackson's tragic surgery revealed). This reaches its 'discursive limit' when a parent is permitted to 'choose' the sex of her/his child: all becomes merely contingent.

The idea that sexuality can be reduced to genes in a one-to-one sort of correspondence is, of course, ridiclous.

I find it strange that the promise of a "homosexual gene" is supposed to allay the fears of the homophobic, as if somehow if it's proven to be a "born in" trait that straight people will stop being threatened by departures from heteronorms such as "gay marriage"...seems to me that this will more likely feed homophobia because it's essentially the same justification racists use for their hatred of black people (their "inferior" genes)...

Great argument for post-humanism btw

 

[vimothy]

The following may sound kerazy, but it's true.

A couple of weeks ago I was out at this bar and got chatting to the toilet attendant, a Nigerian guy in late middle age whose 'day job' was playing saxophone - in fact he used to play sax in Fela Kuti's band.

Good find -- as it happens, I have started to learn the sax and am in dire need of lessons...

 

[Mr. Tea]

Good find -- as it happens, I have started to learn the sax and am in dire need of lessons...

Shame you're not in LDN - I could tell you the name of the bar, he might still be working there, who knows? Sure he'd be glad to pass on some of his expertise.

 

[Mr. Tea]

The idea that sexuality can be reduced to genes in a one-to-one sort of correspondence is, of course, ridiclous.

Oh, I dunno, I'm sure generations of gays have inherited gay genes from their gay parents, who inherited them from their gay parents, and so on back to the dawn of time...

 

[nomadthethird]

Good find -- as it happens, I have started to learn the sax and am in dire need of lessons...

Alto sax? Wind instruments are hard for me, my lungs just aren't strong enough I guess.

Fela Kuti is the bomb, the only afrobeat people I've ever met are in Antibalas :slanted:

 

[Mr. Tea]

I know diddly-squat about African music, though I daresay some of the music forum regulars could point me in the direction of some good Youtube vids to get started on.

 

[matt b]

Sorry matt b...
Is what I said there really that unintelligible?

i stated that the comment could have been racist, but wasn't definately so. given mr b's history it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

your comment sounded like an attempt to justify mr b's comments regardless of context. or at least, somehow make an apology for it.

as those in power in italy at the moment have driven a racist agenda for a while now, it may well have been meant to be a snidely racist statement.

you then went on about how people like mr b should be allowed to use traditionally racist terms in order to reduce their 'power' or somesuch, whilst PC-ing those who disagreed w/you.

or is this way out?

 

[nomadthethird]

There are all those African music threads that Zhao and Mistersloane curate nicely, but for starters just check out Sun Ra and Afrika Bambataa (or however you spell that)...they are the best on vinyl for tripping

 

[vimothy]

Wow -- I find myself agreeing with nomad and HMLT in the same thread.

People, you've got problems...

Yes. What 'de-ontologizes' all of this too - whether sex or race - is, ironically, biogenetics itself, because if genetic (re)engineering is able to reduce the human psyche to an object of manipulation ( what someone like Heidegger feared as the 'danger' inherent in modern science and technology), to fundamentally reconfigure and reduce a human being to a natural object whose physical features can be altered, then it is not just humanity which is retrospectively problematized and undermined, but nature itself is lost, is 'denaturalized.'

Fela Kuti is the bomb

 

[Mr. Tea]

There are all those African music threads that Zhao and Mistersloane curate nicely, but for starters just check out Sun Ra and Afrika Bambataa (or however you spell that)...they are the best on vinyl for tripping

Is Babataa actually African? I thought he was from Detroit or somewhere like that? Edit: South Bronx by way of the Caribbean, according to the interweb.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Wow -- I find myself agreeing with nomad and HMLT in the same thread.

People, you've got problems...

Also, this^^ deserves a 'pffft'.

 

[crackerjack]

Is Babataa actually African? I thought he was from Detroit or somewhere like that? Edit: South Bronx by way of the Caribbean, according to the interweb.

But he has seen Zulu.

 

[nomadthethird]

But he has seen Zulu.

HAha well, (@Mr. Tea) he's an afrofuturist, and afrofuturism is the coolest sort of psychedelic proto-hiphop post-jazz experiment you can imagine. Especially when you trace the lines between early afrofuturism like AB and Sun Ra to Cybotron and acid house.

Politics is one thing, but I usually agree with people here on music.

This board is good because the heads here like music but they're not braindead otherwise. A lot of music boards are insufferably stupid.

 

[zhao]

oh wow... should i

1) try to mediate between the both obviously well meaning parties aruguing over miniscule differences of phrasing and cultural translation?

2) address matters of forum protocol with respect to the history of posters here? or

3) give a few pointers on where to start with African music (as opposed to African American music)?

well ok work is over and all i have to do is hop on the train to GF's house to watch a movie so:

1) Berlusconi is an ass, and the language he uses is disrespectful and offensive in the context. but I'm sure glad I'm not a politician because i'm not careful with my tongue either (but I'm [far as i'm aware] not racist whereas he probably is). matt and cracker and jambo all basically agree on the main points, and have all said what they have to say more than once now, so we should all move on.

2) in any forum there will be gangsterism, but trust me, dissensus is peaches and cream compared to other places.

3) http://differentwaters.blogspot.com/2008/11/ocora-africa-part-1.html

as a mixed race person myself (half Chinese and half Chinese), I would like to conclude by saying: I love everyone.

good night.

 

[nomadthethird]

oh wow... should i

1) try to mediate between the both obviously well meaning parties aruguing over miniscule differences of phrasing and cultural translation?

2) address matters of forum protocol with respect to the history of posters here? or

3) give a few pointers on where to start with African music (as opposed to African American music)?

well ok work is over and all i have to do is hop on the train to GF's house to watch a movie so:

1) Berlusconi is an ass, and the language he uses is disrespectful and offensive in the context. but I'm sure glad I'm not a politician because i'm not careful with my tongue either (but I'm [far as i'm aware] not racist whereas he probably is). matt and cracker and jambo all basically agree on the main points, and have all said what they have to say more than once now, so we should all move on.

2) in any forum there will be gangsterism, but trust me, dissensus is peaches and cream compared to other places.

3) http://differentwaters.blogspot.com/2008/11/ocora-africa-part-1.html

as a mixed race person myself (half Chinese and half Chinese), I would like to conclude by saying: I love everyone.

good night.

does seem like semantics and semantic nitpicking have been at the core of just about every new thread for the past few weeks...

 

[nomadthethird]

Nah, he's far too busy scooting around on his Lambretta, looking sharp in his Fred Perry threads...

This post reminds me of when my parents used to fight when I was a kid and I'd try to say something funny to diffuse the situation...lol

 

[crackerjack]

*sigh*

More of the same being what? My response is polite, I state my opinion and make an effort to clarify what matt b has maybe misunderstood of what I'd said. Dreadful.

You've fixated on 'PC accusations'. I've explained the sense in which it was used. It was rhetorical and informal. I coined the phrase 'PC high ground', excuse me, perhaps I should have said 'moral high ground' but it conveys the same thing - taking a stance for what is and is not morally acceptable.

Sigh away.

Your initial response raised the possiblity that SB didn't mean it as a racist jibe (theoretically possible, but unlikely given his record). Fair enough: unlikely, but fair enough

But you included a little kid crying "that's racism", the claim that the whole thing was "school playground", and that I'm a hypocrite for complaining about racism while using words like cunt.

Now can you see how that sets a certain tone?

And since then you've just been crying like a baby cos everyone's so howwid to you and it's only your first day.

 

[nomadthethird]

Also, Jambo, you didn't exactly "coin the phrase" PC moral high ground, but...

 

[crackerjack]

Oh God, Zhao, you're right - consider my previous post n&v.

 

[jambo]

This is pretty farcical huh?

i stated that the comment could have been racist, but wasn't definately so. given mr b's history it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

You quoted me saying 'from my comment that matt b didn't understand' right below a quote of that original comment of mine, and then you said 'I didn't say it was, I said it could be. But no matter'. Which didn't make any sense to me as a response so I asked for clarification.

But OK, a misunderstanding perhaps.

Yes I agree it could have been racist, but not necessarily so. He might be a dick but is he really going to go around insulting the leader of the USA deliberately?

your comment sounded like an attempt to justify mr b's comments regardless of context. or at least, somehow make an apology for it.

It might have read like that you but I certainly wasn't trying to justify what SB was saying. I was providing a different possible view, additional context and a suggestion.

I'm no fan of Berlusconi (to say the least) and it's a dumb thing for representative of a country to say but this is not uncharacteristic of a way in which older Italian people sometimes talk about dark skinned people. Italians can be quite dark themselves you know. It is usually meant as a compliment.

you then went on about how people like mr b should be allowed to use traditionally racist terms in order to reduce their 'power' or somesuch, whilst PC-ing those who disagreed w/you.

or is this way out?

Yes, way, way, way, way, way, way out. You're in some other galaxy, possibly a parallel universe.

I think some steps in tackling this are made by not giving it fuel. That means by refusing to grant it purchase as a confining reality in the minds of those who would be it's victims, but also in the minds of those who mean well but are afraid that they might be unwitting perpetrators.

Now, where do I mention people like Silvio Berlusconi, or 'racist terms' there?

What I mean is that on the one hand someone like BO has succeeded by refusing to accept that these supposed limitations and obstacles apply to himself.

On the other hand I mean to say that when 'well-meaning' (it's there in the quote - this does not refer to Berlusconi matt!) people get overly touchy about an issue they can inadvertently perpetuate it and to an extent immobilise themselves and progress. 'Ooh, this is a politically sensitive situation, I'd better watch out I don't oppress someone or say the wrong thing, aargh, what do I do!'.

One way in which Obama has succeeded is by refusing to accept that such notions have any relevance to himself as limitations. Admittedly this has been 'easier' for him than for a black person brought up in a black social environment in America, but the principle I think is still demonstrated.