Innovative rhythm programming - wtf? moments

[michael]

Also, just FYI, a technical term for playing stuff in the same tempo but with different bar lengths is colotomy.

(Yes, in some countries that's also what I'd call a colostomy, but maybe that's intended to give an idea of how it feels when a DJ tries this on the dancefloor.)

It's quite useful to have a term to distinguish colotomy and polyrhythms, I reckon.

Polyrhythms basically always sound awful to my ears. I've never heard one sound good.

I've tried making tracks where you have a kick and snare regularly spaced - doof kak doof kak bacbkeat - but actually the track's in e.g. 7 8 with the kick on 1 and the snare half way into the bar on the 8th 16th beat. Layer in some regular hats and suddenly it's all OMG WTF LOL OMG. In other words, it sucks.

 

[jambo]

Did just listen to Solsbury Hill a bit and it's really sort of bars of 6+8 isn't it. Quite deceptive though with the constant pulse. Can's One More Night is the all time groover in 7 but there's a few more.

I think lots of stuff layers 3s over 4s in a polyrhythmic way, anything with a lots of triplets but also especially a lot of African music. I've done stuff with odd little things going on over more regular beats - it's good if it's done subtly, little quiet syncopated shaker loops playing 5s and things.

For DJs using Live it's easy enough to try - you just mark off the downbeats and tell it the track is in 4/4.

 

[owengriffiths]

This brilliant ep by Warren Harris/ hanna
http://www.juno.co.uk/products/181407-01.htm
... has at least one track that isnt 4/4 rythmn. They are usually 4 to the floor kick drums, but they have weird broken beat type drum sounds in the background. add to that that the bar structure on 'Healing' can change over to the next phrase on (what seem to be) half beats.

Very confusing for a DJ but the tunes dont sound all that fucked up

From around the same time is this Broken track by Blakai

http://mp3.juno.co.uk/MP3/SF207375-01-01-01.mp3

Not sure if it isnt 4/4 but it is off kilter

 

[michael]

Can's One More Night is the all time groover in 7 but there's a few more.

Yeah, that's my fave Can tune full stop, actually... so good.

I think lots of stuff layers 3s over 4s in a polyrhythmic way, anything with a lots of triplets but also especially a lot of African music.

Almost said in my last post that I'd exclude 3s against 4s from my comment about polyrhythm - they're just so instantly accessible to my ears, like 2s against 4s almost.

Back on topic, glad for the Shackleton mention, because actually making stuff sound good certainly seems pretty innovative in the realms of fiddly, experimental shit.

All the shuffling downtempo stuff is way too expected and cool to really make my head turn. Not that I don't like a lot of it, just I don't find it inventive. Quite the opposite... totally playing to expectations.

 

[zhao]

off the top of my head, only contemporary electronic musician who regularly uses a non 4/4 time sig is Paul Schütze. i think he does 5/5 or something like that... was really fascinated by his beats at one time. still sounds good. anyone know his work? should i post a sample?

 

[3 Body No Problem]

One that springs to mind from a couple weeks ago is Flying Lotus - Grapesicles (Samiyam Remix) which I attempted to mix in during my radio show without really listening to it first, and instantly gave up as the rhythm unraveled gracefully all over the floor.

Great tune, thanks for mentioning it (here). But it's 4/4, at least the clap, the bass and the pads come in really quite regularly. Something's going on with that tune though, can't put my finger on it. Probably a lot of off-beat hits? Maybe the tempo changes subtly?

 

[UFO over easy]

if we're listing stuff, there's the Free Beat EP by Suv - think Full Cycle were beginning to just sack off everyone else and just try and do different stuff at that point. Two of the tunes are in 6/4, both 4+2, although it changes from time to time. I'm not sure how I feel about that kind of very conscious 'music making' vibe though.. don't know for certain that that's what the aim was but it feels like it a bit, and it's not my favourite era of those guys tunes.

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/full_cycle_records/fcy015

kind of rare in drum and bass, but there are quite a few examples of 5 and 7 elsewhere.

in dubstep headhunter adds a few extra bars to his cycles every now and then as well.. sounds pretty cool, never feels like it's unnecessary.

See now this is a great idea. Do you know of any mixes where anyone does this? A very limited range of tunes to pick from I suppose.

Extremely limited.. kind of what I meant by saying that it just won't sound good blending time sigs like that unless the tunes were really loopy. It'd be much easier for you to find two tunes at different time signatures that are both essentially one bar loops, than it would be to find tunes at different time signatures with structures so far outside your standard 16/32/64 bar cycles that you'll be able to comfortably blend 4/4 and 5/4 or 7/4 if you go at it long enough. It would take so much effort and planning that it would make DJing feel kinda boring and clinical anyway.

 

[wonk_vitesse]

biggest rhythmic wtfs for me this year

- that Donae'o tune (haven't heard a name for it) with the really weird faint vocal - literally made me burst out laughing at how fucked the rhythm is
- Gloop / Aquafresh - Zomby (likewise!)

for me the biggest impacts are in the dancefloor context, because when you have tight steady grooves and then something takes it apart like that you maintain the steady groove and are just left shocked by the way the rhythms are disintegrating around you.. when that Donae'o tune dropped in the Mak 10 rinse set i literally just didn't know what had happened. Liberty by Scotty D was another one

it was a sick year!

agree here, on a higher bpm tip Xanoptican has also ploughed the disintegrating grooves idea, his tracks almost fall apart. Coming from a totally different aesthetic but interesting how it relates to say a Zomby track.

 

[UFO over easy]

xanopticon is wicked, his beats sound like the end of the world but they still groove

 

[Alfons]

http://www.rolldabeats.com/release/full_cycle_records/fcy015

kind of rare in drum and bass, but there are quite a few examples of 5 and 7 elsewhere.

in dubstep headhunter adds a few extra bars to his cycles every now and then as well.. sounds pretty cool, never feels like it's unnecessary.

there's an A-Sides tune called riding fifths which is in 5/4, don't think it was very good tho. Polar did some experimentation too. Someone once told me that a fair few dance producers do 6/8 quite a bit, but it's harder to notice as you can still count 1-2-3-4

With regards to the mixing of different tempos different time signatures, its interesting but somehow I cant imagine it sounding any good? Who can be bothered to load up live and work something out?

 

[UFO over easy]

there's an A-Sides tune called riding fifths which is in 5/4, don't think it was very good tho. Polar did some experimentation too.

yeah there's a tune by prolog on hardleaders in 5/4 too, definitely more that i can't remember. what i meant to say was that even though it's rare, there are a few examples.

 

[ether]

I have issues with unconventional time signatures, I think its the 'difficult' mueso pretensions of math rock or anything knowingly 'progressive' I don't doubt its hugely interesting to the musically competent, but is often sonically rather dull to the untrained ear.

Weirdly i don't have a problem with a lot of world music or jazz, rhythmic complexity feels less forced for some reason.

 

[mistersloane]

Dot Rotten's version of "Talking the Hardest" was the best re-appropriation of a rhythm I heard this year, breathtaking.


oh! and UFO mode. Fucking did my head in first time on that BBK mixtape. I defy anyone to say it didn't n all

 

[subvert47]

I have issues with unconventional time signatures, I think its the 'difficult' mueso pretensions of math rock or anything knowingly 'progressive' I don't doubt its hugely interesting to the musically competent, but is often sonically rather dull to the untrained ear.

sometimes it's dull, yes
never 5/4 though, which is incredibly funky
it keeps on hitting you in the face

 

[straight]

venetian snares stuff is almost always in 7/8. quite often a lot of swing in a rhythm is perceived as an unusual sig. Theres a really bonkers swing on the shed record, sounds like its going out of phase at times. Also the NHK record on raster noton has similarly spanered moments without resorting to hyperactive break chops

 

[nomos]

Been listening to a lot of Shakleton and his claps and what sounds like a empty clay vessel being played brings an intricate middle eastern feel. I take it must be programmed on computer but that must of taken ages as they repeat in an almost tabla like fashion.

he told me that he can spend a good month working on percussion for a track, trying to get it so that there are multiple layers talking back and forth. a track like you bring me down is so understated on the surface but when you listen to all the rhythm parts it's completely mad.

 

[nomos]

wookie was almost sadistic the way he'd drop or add beats, throw in weird pauses, etc. instant humble pie for a dj but even when he wasn't doing that sort of thing, the way those weird organ and bass envelopes played against the beats was wonderfully unstable.

 

[Kuma]

amon tobin- chomp samba.

back when I used to play jungle more often, my best friend used to throw this out at me all the time to fuck with me. processed samba breaks that I'm pretty sure are in 7/8..

 

[Client Eastwood]

he told me that he can spend a good month working on percussion for a track, trying to get it so that there are multiple layers talking back and forth. a track like you bring me down is so understated on the surface but when you listen to all the rhythm parts it's completely mad.

This is exactly what im trying to say esp on that track. Ive tried listening to it with the bass/sub turned off so I dont get distracted and its awesome drum programming. But also the sound pallette is so unique.

 

[IdleRich]

I seem to remember that nineties trip-hop band Lamb did an album called Fear of Fours where they consciously avoided any 4/4 beats on every track. I've got a feeling that the idea was to use a different signature on each tune although don't quote me on that. Never heard it though so don't know if it's any good.