a futile plea to producers

[DJ PIMP]

i just listened to that

then i looked at pictures of him with lindsey lohan and the lead singer from bloc party

lol, link?

 

[UFO over easy]

heh i just went to the myspace. listened to about 40 seconds of each tune. looked at the pictures.

sounds like electro whatever that means at the mo+nu skool breaks to me? that kinda thing. looks like they're calling it disco though? don't really get it. his fringe is incredible though

 

[DJ PIMP]

yeah, its a stompy electro number... but one of the retard party anthems at the mo.

awesome.

 

[doom]

Doom, behave yourself!

Sorry, but while we were doing futile pleas... :slanted:

NO Zhao, that was not just about you. It wasn't about NGOMA 1 or FUSION 1.

NGOMA 2 JUST SO HAPPENS to use a lot of tunes i got from forums, BECAUSE THEY FIT MY MOTHERFUCKING PURPOSE for this one.

But, how would you know if other tunes wouldn't have fit better? If you'd bought em....

Sure, you have selected the tunes here based on merit, but, the pool you've selected them from is limited by whats availible for free on the internet.

and i've spend thousands, yes, that is many multiples of thousands, on records in my time. don't jump to stupid conclusions based on 1 mix.

This has no bearing here, I bought a house once - can I now annex anothers land? (these are stupid, but, I gets stoopid dumb) I've spent thousands on drugs over the years, Ima go rob a dealer!

I don't care; if you are pushing mixes in public, promoting yourself, your parties, your craft - don't do it with leaked / dodgy mp3s. As rude as my inital comment was, I don't think that is entirely irrational.

ps: lol zhao, hit a sore spot?

now shut the fuck up and post a better afro-techno and funky mix than mine.

I bet I could run the 1/4 mile faster as well. Music isn't sport, but if;

homeboy been talking shit about me on other forums too. and yes, it's getting on my tits.

then tighten up, like I've said, its about context. The way you have presented this work leaves you open to criticism, but please don't take it so personnel.

 

[zhao]

But, how would you know if other tunes wouldn't have fit better? If you'd bought em....

Sure, you have selected the tunes here based on merit, but, the pool you've selected them from is limited by whats availible for free on the internet.

The way you have presented this work leaves you open to criticism.

i was selecting from hundreds of tunes, a lot of them i had purchased. and it just so happens that the ones i got on the nets worked better. if i had saved them i could output earlier versions of the mix which included much more tunes not from the web to show you. it was actually a decision i made many times over: "this one is less known... but that more well known one works better" --- and for this mix i always went with the one which works better.

but it's partly true: in recent months my free lance work slowed down a bit, as it sometimes happens during the winter months, and i did not have much extra income to spend on music ---- and when it came to making NGOMA2, the tunes i bought earlier just didn't work as well as the material i got from various forums. (and the African ones from Mr. Sloane i've been wanting to use for ever) big fuckin woop. a lot of big djs mix selections are not much deeper than this either.

and based on this one mix, you get up in arms and basically insinuate that as a whole i am a "lazy and shallow internet dj who copies and pastes top downloads":

you are representing the music thru a filter which has nothing to do with music. It also makes me skeptical of the rest of your work, I liked Vol.1 but this tarnishes it, I can't help but wonder if perhaps because I'm not familiar with the music on that one, same things havn't happened.

things like this i do not take lightly. "lazy copy paste internet djs" don't get invited to open for Pan Sonic. or get booked to play Fusion Fest.

i search long and hard and dig deep for the sounds i'm after -- there are tracks on VOL. 1 i bought from my travels; there are tracks from personal connections not commercially available anywhere. and you can be sure that the next volume will be like VOL.1 -- full of diverse selections that will make people scratch their heads.

even with a lot of the tracks coming from the web on this mix (which there is nothing wrong with, as the web, in case you didn't realize, is a BIG fuckin place), the juxtapositions and edits are absolutely unique, and the meticulously sequenced flow speaks for itself. the work i put into it is apparent, and there for all to scrutinize and enjoy.

you have not even heard the thing, and yet jump to conclusions and make broad judgements on my character and integrity as an artist.

no, music is not competitive sports, but when you say things like:

the selection is really narrow, cheap & sells the music short.
... I'm not even gonna download it, it could be so much better.

you better post a better one.

 

[msoes]

ur a wanker

 

[zhao]

ur a wanker

and ur a stupid little bitch.

glad the debate has reached these dizzying heights of intellectual intrigue.

bottom line: doom, why don't you worry less about where the tunes for someone elses mix came from, and more about your own craft?

i'll fucking use whatever i fucking please. i'll use all tunes ripped from myspace pages if i god damned feel like it -- and if it sounds like shit, it sounds like shit; if it sound good, people will enjoy it. simple.

speaking of myspace, this just landed in my inbox from the dude who runs Dubstep Forum - who i'm sure you'll agree is not stupid or someone ignorant of the UK music scene:

hey there - just want to say thanks for the mix. really feeling the selection. you've pulled together a lot of the music i'm feeling at the moment into a great mix.

respect

my work gives people pleasure. and that's what is important at the end of the day. in the future i will continue to use what ever i can get my hands on and any means necessary to do what i do, and the best according to my abilities. and you should shut the fuck up and do the same.

P.S. on second thought, this is probably what your "outrage" is about: a lot of these tunes have been made available to the public, and you have them all; but you didn't do jack shit with them. and now that i have done something with them, and people are responding positively, you are jealous. yes, i think that's the spade here: jealousy.

reminds me of this famous little interaction:

some asshole after a show: "anyone can do that."
john cage: "but you didn't."

you've been buying a lot of tunes for the past few months because you have a lot of money at the moment? good for you. now go make that deep selection of undiscovered gems happen -- and keep your whining and bitching to yourself.

 

[john eden]

I would be grateful if everyone could desist from childish namecalling.

 

[doom]

you better post a better one.

I dunno if its better, I'm gonna stop bein an ass & D/L your mix & chk out the execution.

Adelaide Deep... Worldwide House Music

That Beep (Radioclit Remix) - Architecture In Helsinki
Fashion (Drum Remix) - Guzluv
Mbeki - Andy X
Alone In Africa Pt. One (Arnaud D Deep Mix) - Niko De Luka
Katumbo (Beats Mix) - Abicah Soul
Greenlight - Footsteps
So Good Today (Yoruba Soul Remix) - Ben Westbeech
Passages - Franck Roger
Mirror Dance (Yoruba Soul Mix) - Afefe Iku Ft. Oveous Maximus
Labyrinthe - DJ Gregory
Compromise - N.B. Funky
Seasons - Lil Silva
I Will Hold On (Ndiza Kulinda) - DJ Choc Ft. Mercy Pakela

Was gonna end it on 'Seasons' but I didn't wanna get accused of anthem bashing, I actually left the room to put the kettle on but changed my mind at the last minute as I wanted to end on a positive tip, cos Zhao - its all love out here

100% live - No Headphones, 100% unplanned / unrehearsed / unedited. Enjoy!


I would also like to take this opportunity to apologize to Zhao for openly questioning his art in a thread where he is openly questioning peoples art...

 

[doom]

you've been buying a lot of tunes for the past few months because you have a lot of money at the moment? good for you. now go make that deep selection of undiscovered gems happen -- and keep your whining and bitching to yourself.

Mate, I live off about $100 AUD a week... & manage to spend alot of that on tunes, because thats my passion.

Yeah, I'm jealous... I'm as far removed this type of shit;

"lazy copy paste internet djs" don't get invited to open for Pan Sonic. or get booked to play Fusion Fest.

... as the residents of Timbuktu are from the Spring Fashion Show.

I just love music & wanna see shit done right.

Again, my 'futile plea' was not aimed just @ you, there is a broad & disturbing trend I keep seeing again & again, so when I see someone I know is capable of doing better slipping I'm actually dissappointed, cos I want this music to spread, I want people to LOVE it as much as I do & get the pleasure I get from it... I don't want people looking for 'Grrrw' by Hard House Banton.

If you are gonna put stuff out there you need to practice taking criticism better.

P.S.

i'll use all tunes ripped from myspace pages if i god damned feel like it -- and if it sounds like shit, it sounds like shit;

Good luck with that.

I would be grateful if everyone could desist from childish namecalling.

I actually feel bad for starting this shitstorm, my heartfelt sorry to all the users of Dissensus. I would rather disscuss the issues at hand than see things like that.

 

[crackerjack]

I would be grateful if everyone could desist from childish namecalling.

Start with the natural competitiveness of record shop boys, stir in the inherent lariness of the web and leave to simmer over an obscurantist message board.

Spicy.

(thanx for the mix, Zhao - will listen later)

 

[zhao]

3rd track in and fully enjoying your mix. good well rounded poly-rhythms created.

no the point you bring up is valid, and lazy ass djs annoy me too -- why i wrote the DOGME 08 list. but don't confuse me with one of them just based on 1 mix (which intentionally uses some big obvious bangers -- Dogme directors make non-Dogme films all the time, and should not have to apologize for them)

in the end, thanks for the input, and thanks for keeping me on my toes. i'll perhaps factor in the source in my selection process in the future. and thanks for heads up on the track name error.

peace.

 

[msoes]

doom where in aus are you from?

 

[jambo]

I didn't think that description applied to zhao from what I know of what he does. But you have to hear about stuff somehow if you are a DJ, unless you only use tracks you get direct from producers or make yourself. Using tracks posted on forums is just utilising the layers of global cultural content filter hive mind beat aggregates like what the internet pundits keep telling us is the way forward. But really, is it so different to hearing something good and chasing it down, or going into a shop and checking out what's new, or going to an online store and listening to clips? If you hear something you like well that's it isn't it? Otherwise it's like that stupid thing idiot DJs have where it has to be super rare and on vinyl, which is ultimately not about the music at all.

 

[luka]

adelaide. i am not doom. but i can read!

 

[doom]

But really, is it so different to hearing something good and chasing it down, or going into a shop and checking out what's new, or going to an online store and listening to clips?

I feel there is a differance yeah. Its tricky. I accept the "I'll use anything" approach when it comes to playing out - if the quality is passable then drop whatever it takes in a dance, but, I think the line needs to be drawn at promo mixes posted online or distro'd as CDs to advertize a club night / DJ or whatever.

There is a real problem with playing MySpace / Youtube / Mixtapes rips in any context - there has to be some point of minimum sound quality yh? If everyone ends up playing a copy of a copy of a copy we're in deep dog shit! As good as any theory that could drawn out of it sounds, it doesn't work in reality.

I usually buy, if possible, legit copies of stuff I steal if I end up loving it / using it & you would be amazed at how many "320s" sound like complete arse, with CDJs becoming more & more prelevent I think alot of 192/256/320 files are getting burnt to CDR then re-ripped @ 320 before they hit the net.

While I agree with;

Otherwise it's like that stupid thing idiot DJs have where it has to be super rare and on vinyl, which is ultimately not about the music at all.

There is a point where musical sound gets so degraded that its just noise, no matter which way you look at it.

Throw in some 1st & 3rd World interpenetration, arguments about the importance of attribution & the politics of leaking... like I said, it gets tricky.


luka,

yep, Adelaide. My nan thinks its cool!!!

 

[tyranny]

i think professionalism is overrated tbh - it has overtones of craft, not art. i'd rather see someone who hasn't a clue what they are doing produce something exciting. in the same way that producers who are classically trained (BT for example) have difficulty composing something truly alien because its hard to break those drummed in rules.

but as regards collective evolution or people wanting more of the same for the identity of being in a scene, that hasn't always resulted in average music. looking back at the rave cannon there seems to be an embarrassment of riches - but sure enough there's also loads of shite. but it doesn't tend to be tasteful - more bold ideas that didn't work out.

i've got infinitely more patience for that kind of mistake than i have of a piece of work which is neither bad nor good - but just damned by mere adequacy.

on the other hand i find it odd that people insist that functional dance music should aspire to being art...

craft could be defined as the creation of a practical artefact marrying form and function (hello photek!) - if you think of basket weaving for example you will see that the best baskets woven by master weavers are utterly practical and are beautiful objects. there tends to be a serious tradeoff between making something "pretty" and making something "useful" and someone who truly skilled in the craft has the best results. there are thousands of people worldwide making baskets with near identical functions but strikingly different forms using strikingly varied techniques.

why should we insist on upholding standards of "art" to a process that resembles "craft"?

 

[jambo]

If everyone ends up playing a copy of a copy of a copy we're in deep dog shit!

Yeah but not everyone does and that's never actually going to happen is it.

I've always bought stuff but I might occasionally play a 'found' mp3 if I really can't get the track anywhere else and it's really good or just right on the night. That's my old school ethos though, it's unlikely I'd ever play a rip but even those might, and clearly do, have their place in certain contexts you know.

There is a real problem with playing MySpace / Youtube / Mixtapes rips in any context - there has to be some point of minimum sound quality yh?

I dunno, different contexts, aims, intentions, and different people have diffeent ways of working. Those are your preferred standards and that's fine but I'd hardly call it a 'real' problem. If we're talking about clubs then if it sounds really shit it's not going to work for very long.

Throw in some 1st & 3rd World interpenetration, arguments about the importance of attribution & the politics of leaking... like I said, it gets tricky.

You could say it was tricky in many ways, of course people argue about this stuff all the time. But I think it starts to sound like the sort of king canute thinking that has hamstrung the old style record industry when faced with the reality of the internet. Obviously straight out stealing a track and passing it off as your own is not the thing, but we're not talking about stuff not being attributed.

 

[jambo]

Doom, I do agree there certainly are 'djs' you could level criticism at in terms of having no selection depth beyond the surface of a few blogs and forums. Preening idiots who think that means they know what they are doing are very annoying. But since when have most Djs not been twats.

 

[doom]

But since when have most Djs not been twats.

Touche!!!

Thats my head in the cooker w/ the gas on then

That's my old school ethos though, it's unlikely I'd ever play a rip but even those might, and clearly do, have their place in certain contexts you know.

This is where it does get sticky for me, as I can understand the argument for those certain contexts & can even see how / why it would be a good thing. But that 1 case in 100 where someone is doing all the 'wrong' things & coming out with amazing & perhaps otherwise impossible results is totally out wieghed by the 99 kids playing Crookers myspace rips off a cracked copy of Ableton.

Those are your preferred standards and that's fine but I'd hardly call it a 'real' problem.

Well, whilst part of the argument is down to subjective tastes & what are really indevidual standards, we're all human & mechanically all our ears are built the same way & will shit themselves if subjected to industrial volumes of grey, encoded puss for extended periods of time.

I actually think the copy of a copy of a copy thing is happening alot & will get worse as technology becomes quicker, more integrated & as the gap between knowing what you are doing & being able to do it gets ever wider.