grime queries

[Logan Sama]

I would choose to play Sovereign all day over MIA. MIA has NOOOOOOOOOOOOOTHING to do with grime, her tunes aren't produced by grime producers, she doesn't listen to grime, she is a tepid pop act on an independant label who seem to like to use their artists to give lesser acts credibility.

 

[bun-u]

but isn't the essence of My Red Hot Car, "look at those ignorant kids with their cars, i'm gonna educate them with my complex post Weather Report-beats... ." i like the melodies of the tune, but find its sentiments dodgy.

absolutely, I went right off the tune after some nathan said to me 'yeah it's great cos it takes the piss out of that garage shite'

 

[Blackdown]

there seems an inherent assumption amongst the IDM lot that greater complexity = more intelligent music. in fact there's nothing smarter than a minimal tune like "Eskimo."

 

[Grievous Angel]

I've never bought any drill'n'bass records, but I think I'd like them, so some sort of Grime-gone-drill fusion sounds OK to me.

Scenius is a funny thing. On the one hand, scenes and their kinda-xxxenophobia are a source of strength; on the other hand, they can be incestuous, and where does that leave people who have no scene, but can make great tunes?

I'm not sure those kinds of divisions should be fostered.

Not when you're rushing anyway

Oh, and that Mia tune sounds great in the context of Kid Kameleon's mix...

 

[gumdrops]

there seems an inherent assumption amongst the IDM lot that greater complexity = more intelligent music. in fact there's nothing smarter than a minimal tune like "Eskimo."

not only that but theres often a lot more hard work and complexity going into making a deceptively simple tune like i luv u or something by remarc than say, a more 'musical' tune by 4hero.

 

[Logan Sama]

I Luv U was made in one afternoon in music class. It didn't take more effort than anything by 4 Hero.

 

[Poet for Hire]

I would choose to play Sovereign all day over MIA. MIA has NOOOOOOOOOOOOOTHING to do with grime, her tunes aren't produced by grime producers, she doesn't listen to grime, she is a tepid pop act on an independant label who seem to like to use their artists to give lesser acts credibility.

there is more to music than the grime gospel though,
vicar logan

 

[gumdrops]

I Luv U was made in one afternoon in music class. It didn't take more effort than anything by 4 Hero.

i luv u was a bad example. remarc is still a good example though. and 4hero have all types of tracks to their name. for every hold it down, they have the earlier more hardcore/D&B/techno type stuff. perhaps 'effort' is the wrong word.

i dont think grime will go all prog, simply because it seems to aspire to more hip hop principles than any set by jazz fusion or what have you, so musicality and all those trad notions of musical superiority isnt going to come into it.

 

[mms]

but isn't the essence of My Red Hot Car, "look at those ignorant kids with their cars, i'm gonna educate them with my complex post Weather Report-beats... ." i like the melodies of the tune, but find its sentiments dodgy.

nah i think he's like alot of the top few of these guys, he's got no choice but to be squarepusher. i know him and his brothers have got an enviable collection of jungle and hardcore, they love it.
anyway with a career trajectory like his how could he do a straight up garage record?
i think he'd fuck it up anyway cos it would turn into squarepusher nerdy bloke from chelmsford sounding insincere and probably well shit. some people just don't fit in.


totally agree with the idea that idm has gone wrong cos greater complexity or the more programmes you can use means greater intelligent cos it doesn't. it often means a mess.
on the other hand a reliance on heavy handed sentimental melody is as bad.
also agree that eskimo kills about 90% of idm, but i think i prefer ice rink, that fucks with my head like james brown does.

 

[Keith P]

Look out for Wonder's next release "face"
On a what type vibe.

The mans defo mixed race. Like it matters though.

 

[ripley]

but isn't the essence of My Red Hot Car, "look at those ignorant kids with their cars, i'm gonna educate them with my complex post Weather Report-beats... ." i like the melodies of the tune, but find its sentiments dodgy.

Oh, wow. where are you getting the sentiments from? or the subtext? is that the beats themselves signify pretention and condescension to you? or is it something he has said? Or is it the lyrics?

(on the lyrical tip, "Gonna f*ck you in my red car" is no more or less extreme than lots of R&B/crunk, and not even a 10th as silly as "in those jeans.")

I like the melody and the beats.. plus it can tear up a dancefloor, used judiciously.

 

[stelfox]

I would choose to play Sovereign all day over MIA. MIA has NOOOOOOOOOOOOOTHING to do with grime, her tunes aren't produced by grime producers, she doesn't listen to grime, she is a tepid pop act on an independant label who seem to like to use their artists to give lesser acts credibility.

i don't like her either, but she does listen to a lot of grime.

 

[SIZZLE]

re drill and grime: look for this kid atki2 coming through soon, he's definitely making a play at this idea. He's a breakcore producer now making grime and adding a bit of the extra digitalism and clatter to it, to good effect I think.

but yes, I agree, grime is definitely merking idm right now, much less stuck in formulas, much more interesting beats and more lively scene. One of the major problems with the idm world is it is populated by a lot of dudes with a very strange and limited sense of partying and fun.

And: re squarepusher, I don't think he is being disengenuous or taking the piss necessarily, I think he just ends up in a spannered place while trying to imitate certain forms. BUT there are people who think this way "let's take the new ghetto thing and commodify it's coolness while watering it down, getting rid of the blackness and half making fun of it to make it marketable to white people". Not gonna name names but there are some people who really need to check themselves on this front.

I feel the way through this is to make sure that if you want to participate in someone elses thing that you are doing so on terms of mutual respect and exchange of ideas, not just jacking a style and feeding it to a different market. I feel like if you want to fuck with a style like grime you have to make a sincere attempt to be accepted by the kids on road with what you're doing and therefore be in a dialog, talking TO them from outside rather than ABOUT them to other people outside.

 

[Logan Sama]

there is more to music than the grime gospel though,
vicar logan

Not when the title of the thread is "Grime Queries" there isn't

 

[droid]

am i the only one that is filled with fear at the prospect of "drill n grime?" didn't anyone learn last time squarepusher tried to "correct" jungle?

Im always fascinated by this point of view (which usually comes from people who wouldnt know a Squarepusher track if it bit them on the ass). Sure Tom Jenkinson said a few stupid things in a few interviews that pissed off a lot of jungilists... I recall a similar episode involving General Levy. That doesnt make his music any less relevant or vital, and in Squarepushers case, it was a direct result of resentment at his rejection at the hands of 'the scene'.

These 'its not REAL jungle' or its 'wanky experimentalism', or (my favourite) 'you cant dance to it' arguments, whilst possibly applicable to some of the artists of today (Venitian Snares springs to mind), betrays a total lack of knowledge of the origins of the genre in question. Listen to early drill + bass like: Feed me Weird Things/Big Loada/Vic Acid/Hangable Autobulb, and many of SP's remixes (The DJ Food one in particular), and whilst there are some experimental (and wanky) bits, there are also a shitload of mindblowingly good ardkore dancefloor moments... check out 'Cardhore' from Jega for some serious breakbeat acid business, or listen to a few minutes of the 'Chaos AD' LP by Squarepusher. The continuity from hardcore/jungle is self evident IMO, and simply because a producer is not 'urban' or part of the scene (and I think this is the crux of the matter), doesnt mean that their contributions will/should be ignored (What about Boymerang's meteroic rise for example)

I never understood why anyone wanted to listen to Squarepusher when they could listen to Dillinja (I'm talking golden era Dillinja, of course).

Has it occurred to you that maybe it was possible to do both? After all, Dillinja wasnt exactly the most prolific of artists in his 'golden era' was he? When Squarepusher/AFX et al started coming out with drill+bass tunes in 95/96, D+B was already starting to stagnate, so what were the options back then? replay your old Dillinja 12's till they wear out? become an overnight fan of Optical and Decoder? or look for something new, exciting and (dare I say it), experimental that seemed to recapture some of the 'anything goes' vibe of hardcore jungilism...

Of course, Lady Sov and M.I.A. been releasing stuff for about a year now whereas Squarepusher has amassed his 4 good songs over the course of nearly a decade. Not to mention the fact that either of the former's "good" songs is about a million times better than Squarepusher's best song.

And what, pray tell ARE those 'good' Squarepusher tracks?

I may be wrong here, but I get the impression that most of these criticisms of Drilll + Bass come from people who have only superficial knowledge of the genre. Not to say there arent plenty of valid criticisms you COULD make about it, but i have yet to see one in this thread....

 

[Clubberlang]

After all, Dillinja wasnt exactly the most prolific of artists in his 'golden era' was he?

Um actually between the stuff that Dillinja released under his various alias (Capone, Trinity, Dillinjah, Dillinger, Cybotron) and collabs and remixes yeah he was pretty prolific in his prime. Admittedly none of that was presented in a handy CD compilation, but if it had of been well I am sure it would have filled a couple of discs.

And what, pray tell ARE those 'good' Squarepusher tracks?

Ya know I was responding to someone else's point about there being four good Squarepusher tracks and pointing out that amassing four good tracks over the course of a ten year career doesn't compare to well with two artists who have released about four singles in the course of a year or two. But I do like "Red Hot Car" (I think its the girl version) and a couple of things on the early EPs ("Journey to Reedham", I believe, I remember having a very pretty synth line.) I'll totally admit to not having the most encyclopedic knowledge of drill'n'bass though, but that's cuz most of it is pretty annoying (but I still own a bit so make of that what you will.)

 

[Blackdown]

Im always fascinated by this point of view (which usually comes from people who wouldnt know a Squarepusher track if it bit them on the ass). Sure Tom Jenkinson said a few stupid things in a few interviews that pissed off a lot of jungilists... I recall a similar episode involving General Levy. That doesnt make his music any less relevant or vital, and in Squarepushers case, it was a direct result of resentment at his rejection at the hands of 'the scene'.

These 'its not REAL jungle' or its 'wanky experimentalism', or (my favourite) 'you cant dance to it' arguments, whilst possibly applicable to some of the artists of today (Venitian Snares springs to mind), betrays a total lack of knowledge of the origins of the genre in question. Listen to early drill + bass like: Feed me Weird Things/Big Loada/Vic Acid/Hangable Autobulb, and many of SP's remixes (The DJ Food one in particular), and whilst there are some experimental (and wanky) bits, there are also a shitload of mindblowingly good ardkore dancefloor moments... check out 'Cardhore' from Jega for some serious breakbeat acid business, or listen to a few minutes of the 'Chaos AD' LP by Squarepusher. The continuity from hardcore/jungle is self evident IMO, and simply because a producer is not 'urban' or part of the scene (and I think this is the crux of the matter), doesnt mean that their contributions will/should be ignored (What about Boymerang's meteroic rise for example)



Has it occurred to you that maybe it was possible to do both? After all, Dillinja wasnt exactly the most prolific of artists in his 'golden era' was he? When Squarepusher/AFX et al started coming out with drill+bass tunes in 95/96, D+B was already starting to stagnate, so what were the options back then? replay your old Dillinja 12's till they wear out? become an overnight fan of Optical and Decoder? or look for something new, exciting and (dare I say it), experimental that seemed to recapture some of the 'anything goes' vibe of hardcore jungilism...



And what, pray tell ARE those 'good' Squarepusher tracks?

I may be wrong here, but I get the impression that most of these criticisms of Drilll + Bass come from people who have only superficial knowledge of the genre. Not to say there arent plenty of valid criticisms you COULD make about it, but i have yet to see one in this thread....

I have virtually all the key EPs from that era. both Hangable Autobulb EPs, all the Plug EPs, five or six Squarepusher EPs on Spymania and the Ambient Soho sublabel plus the DJ Food remix. I was at the Blue Note when Vibert as Plug debuted his album alongside AFX and Boymerang in '96 (as well as attending Metalheadz and Stealth et al) <B>so what's your point droid?</B>

Since that time, by immersing myself in London's multicultural meltingpot, I've come to see that IDM headz, of which followers of Squarepusher are prime examples, completely fail to see the difference between music and culture.

you say " The continuity from hardcore/jungle is self evident IMO." Sure Squarepusher's track used rave musical influences in them, but they contain no rave culture. his tracks are interesting sonically but totally monocultural. "anything goes" in those raves ... as long as you're white, male and middle class. Rave was a unique and beautiful divergence in british class and race groups, as was jungle that followed it. Drill n bass removed itself from that unique cultural continuum - yet claimed to embody it. i'd call that a "valid criticism."

 

[mpc]

Maybe this comes from Squarepusher having had a ten album career, and Sov having had four 12"s, and MIA about the same. Regardless, MPC, I applaud the nonsensical nature of this observation.

hmmm...point made elsewhere.

but, 3underscore, you have obviously failed to remember that, as simon reynolds pointed out, MIA subverts the shanty house theory. how can such a heinous bitch be allowed to live? also, lady sovereign is void as a person. everyone knows that true grime can only be made by black people.

regardless, I applaud you (for no particular reason).

 

[Melchior]

but, 3underscore, you have obviously failed to remember that, as simon reynolds pointed out, MIA subverts the shanty house theory. how can such a heinous bitch be allowed to live? also, lady sovereign is void as a person. everyone knows that true grime can only be made by black people.

 

[droid]

Um actually between the stuff that Dillinja released under his various alias (Capone, Trinity, Dillinjah, Dillinger, Cybotron) and collabs and remixes yeah he was pretty prolific in his prime. Admittedly none of that was presented in a handy CD compilation, but if it had of been well I am sure it would have filled a couple of discs.

Dont forget 'The Basic Influence' stuff on Hardleaders and 'The specialist' stuff on Dread!

I guess this kinda depends on what you define as Dillinja's 'Golden Era'. For me it lasted till sometime in 96, with 'Mysteries of the Deep' by Capone marking the beginning of the end , and the 'Me and the papes' remix marking the er.. end of the end.. I dont really rate the Cybotron stuff on Prototype that highly either. Even taking all of his aliases into account, his output over the period we're discussing (92-96 roughly) pales in comparison to the discographies of producers like 4 hero or Omni Trio. (Not that this in anyway diminishes his contribution to D+B)

Check out his discog. The guys done a shitload of tunes, but unfortunately, the majority of them were produced between 1997 and 2005...

Ya know I was responding to someone else's point about there being four good Squarepusher tracks and pointing out that amassing four good tracks over the course of a ten year career doesn't compare to well with two artists who have released about four singles in the course of a year or two. But I do like "Red Hot Car" (I think its the girl version) and a couple of things on the early EPs ("Journey to Reedham", I believe, I remember having a very pretty synth line.) I'll totally admit to not having the most encyclopedic knowledge of drill'n'bass though, but that's cuz most of it is pretty annoying (but I still own a bit so make of that what you will.)

Fair enough. It just seemed like a fairly glib dismissal of a producer that IMO has produced some amazing records, and has certainly released more than 4 good tunes in his career. I think 4 good albums would be closer to the truth...