Metal Machine Music

[Sick Boy]

smh

 

[DannyL]

To go wildly offtopic, I am actually listening to MMM again as I type. It's not as bad as I remember it, but my impressions are...some of the noises and textures are quite interesting (pleasant/abrasive/melancholic/whatever) but they aren't used in enough of a sustained or structured way to hold my attention or for this initial interest to develop. Too random for me. I can't imagine wanting to put it on again afterwards.

Anyone else?

 

[zhao]

God, Germans really can't take a joke, can they?

i wonder if my IP address on the watch list now since dissensus has sent me several times now to neo-nazi related you-tubes... oh no the IP address is under the girlfriend's name!

 

[petergunn]

To go wildly offtopic, I am actually listening to MMM again as I type. It's not as bad as I remember it, but my impressions are...some of the noises and textures are quite interesting (pleasant/abrasive/melancholic/whatever) but they aren't used in enough of a sustained or structured way to hold my attention or for this initial interest to develop. Too random for me. I can't imagine wanting to put it on again afterwards.

Anyone else?

that would be my main criticism with it, that there is no real structure (that i've acertained the few times i've listened...)

oh and 50 keeps going, this shit has got me dying, i gotta give him credit... everytime they have Rick Ross just say "boss!", i LOL...

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[nomadthethird]

I've not read all the links you posted to, and I don't doubt there's some weird and offensive attitudes expressed within them, but Nirpal Dhaliwal is pretty widely acknowledged to be a bit of a dick.

In fact, I think he's only famous because his (now ex-) fiancee had a column devoted to what a wanker he was.

Wait wait--is he the guy who was married to that anorexic woman and they had some weird columns about married life where they were giving "advice" that amounted to probably the weirdest, retrosexist bullshit I've ever read it my life about how the man is always supposed to be "in control" and blah balh...??

If so, then yeah, he is a first class loser.

Padraig, I agree that there are grime artists and such who seem to "get" hip-hop, and I agree that in the U.S. we have racists who are just more careful about what they say, but don't you think that the class system over here is just completely different than it is anywhere in western Europe? I mean I haven't been to the U.K., so maybe it's closer than I'm picking up on-- but everywhere else I have been in Europe, there was nothing like the abject poverty you see in the U.S., or the ghettoization of most of an entire ethnic population.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Padraig, I agree that there are grime artists and such who seem to "get" hip-hop, and I agree that in the U.S. we have racists who are just more careful about what they say, but don't you think that the class system over here is just completely different than it is anywhere in western Europe? I mean I haven't been to the U.K., so maybe it's closer than I'm picking up on-- but everywhere else I have been in Europe, there was nothing like the abject poverty you see in the U.S., or the ghettoization of most of an entire ethnic population.

different, sure, but "completely different" no. the biggest difference is obv. the starting point of involuntary vs. voluntary, if economically induced, migration. the average degree of poverty may differ but there are still masses of poor people in Western Europe who feel disenfranchised from the societies they live in. North/West Africans & Caribbeans in France, Black British & South Asians, Turks in Germany, plus the Romani everywhere (if you want to talk about ghettoization of an entire ethnic population) etc etc. plus of course the poor & working class white people, a fair number of whom are from Eastern Europe. as I said a mix of race/class lines that varies depending on the circumstances. I dunno how this is really debateable; the repeating riots in France, the endless problems of Western European countries in dealing with their Muslim immigrants, and so on. the periodic race riots in the UK as well, though there haven't been any in a few years (last were like what, around the turn of the millennium? British person help me out?).

the only countries I think your point really holds up for are the Scandinavian trio cos they're so heterogenous & have such a high standard of living.

I don't want this to sound like rich white kids can't understand hip hop either, just that it's a learned/empathetic vs. an inherent understanding.

 

[nomadthethird]

Right right...I think more and more things are changing everywhere due to immigrant populations in major cities, etc.

But what about institutionalized racism in the form of lack of social programs, minimum wage slavery, higher education being inaccessible to anyone who can't qualify for student loans (because of a felony conviction or because of lack of co-signer), etc. It doesn't seem like the drug war is the same everywhere to me, at all, even though drugs (some drugs) of course can be found almost anywhere.

Right now the U.S. is basically flooded with hard drugs that are exceptionally pure and exceptionally cheap, thanks to a lack of resources allotted to government programs (due to the war on terror, primarily), and due to the huge influx of immigrants from the major drug production centers in south and central America, throughout the U.S., not just in major urban centers.

So the way you see meth has moved into impoverished western/south western/mid-western areas and destroyed/ravaged the poor white population, you have heroin and cocaine laying waste to entire counties in the northeast, west, southwest, and southeast, and it's not even just the poor anymore. Drugs will go global, but for now I'd say the U.S. is hit harder than many, many other countries by the big three: meth, coke, heroin.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

Right right...I think more and more things are changing everywhere due to immigrant populations in major cities, etc.

yeah & not just migration across national borders either, internal migration of rural people to urban slums as well. my main experience with this is actually Mexico, where I lived for about a yr & have visited many times, rather than Europe.

But what about institutionalized racism in the form of lack of social programs, minimum wage slavery, higher education being inaccessible to anyone who can't qualify for student loans (because of a felony conviction or because of lack of co-signer), etc. It doesn't seem like the drug war is the same everywhere to me, at all, even though drugs (some drugs) of course can be found almost anywhere.

these are all fair points. one thing though - all those social programs/benefits (which are mostly from the post-WWII era yeah? someone correct me if I'm wrong) were in place before 1) the drug war was what it is now & 2) Western European countries were dealing with that large influx of immigrants from their former colonies. on the other side, of course institutional racism exists & is a mjor problem but I don't think some of those things you mentioned can be chalked up only to that, though it's true that poor people of color are often hit the hardest.

Right now the U.S. is basically flooded with hard drugs that are exceptionally pure and exceptionally cheap, thanks to a lack of resources allotted to government programs (due to the war on terror, primarily), and due to the huge influx of immigrants from the major drug production centers in south and central America, throughout the U.S., not just in major urban centers...Drugs will go global, but for now I'd say the U.S. is hit harder than many, many other countries by the big three: meth, coke, heroin.

oh man that is a whole vast can of worms tied up with militarism, immigration policy or a lack thereof, tons of huge complex Issues. generally, sure, with a lot of reservations that it's much more complex than a paragraph or two could ever make it out to be. certainly the U.S. has more severe drug problems than Europe, though I'd reckon it's part to do with, as you mention, our proximity to where the drugs come from (doesn't Iran have a pretty bad problem with heroin?) & part just supply meeting demand. that bit about drugs "going global", I dunno, what does that mean?

 

[scottdisco]

(doesn't Iran have a pretty bad problem with heroin?)

yep, viciously so.

there's some interesting things you raise up-thread, that might get a discussion going

 

[nomadthethird]

these are all fair points. one thing though - all those social programs/benefits (which are mostly from the post-WWII era yeah? someone correct me if I'm wrong) were in place before 1) the drug war was what it is now & 2) Western European countries were dealing with that large influx of immigrants from their former colonies. on the other side, of course institutional racism exists & is a mjor problem but I don't think some of those things you mentioned can be chalked up only to that, though it's true that poor people of color are often hit the hardest.

No, the "drug war" started around 1965, in full force, although heroin and marijuana were criminalized earlier, mostly as a way to put black people and latinos in jail.

oh man that is a whole vast can of worms tied up with militarism, immigration policy or a lack thereof, tons of huge complex Issues. generally, sure, with a lot of reservations that it's much more complex than a paragraph or two could ever make it out to be. certainly the U.S. has more severe drug problems than Europe, though I'd reckon it's part to do with, as you mention, our proximity to where the drugs come from (doesn't Iran have a pretty bad problem with heroin?) & part just supply meeting demand. that bit about drugs "going global", I dunno, what does that mean?

Sure, there is always the golden triangle and the middle east is the supply route to Europe, but do you have 4 million heroin addicts in the U.K.? Or in Europe in general? Because in the U.S. you now have 4 million heroin addicts, according to medical rather than government sources (which obviously tend to underestimate the numbers). Columbian heroin is on the street at 90% pure these days. We're not in Charlie Parker jazzman territory, when the average purity level was around 15%-20%. There's a waiting list over a year long to get into any methadone or suboxone clinic, not to mention the crisis in available rehab facilities. You have soccer moms, police officers, lawyers, professionals of all kinds on waiting lists just to get into medical heroin/oxycontin detox. The abuse of prescription painkillers like oxycontin and MS contin is at record high levels right now and painkiller overdose is now one of the leading causes of death for teenagers in many cities.

 

[nomadthethird]

that bit about drugs "going global", I dunno, what does that mean?

That means that you'll have a GLOBAL multi-billion dollar rehab industry in no time, if the world economy continues in decline.

 

[empty mirror]

how did this discussion go from lou reed to heroin?
wait...

 

[nomadthethird]

Ha. Drugs are always relevant!

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

That means that you'll have a GLOBAL multi-billion dollar rehab industry in no time, if the world economy continues in decline.

there's one already surely? but I guess what you really mean is that you think it will grow by leaps & bounds.

not that I'm really disagreeing, just trying to follow your reasoning. so, it's that as more people lose their jobs/homes/etc., more despair, they'll do more drugs? that more people will turn to illicit sectors of the economy to make $, thus expanding the drug trade? that more people being displaced to urban slums will mean an increase in the # of drug users (uprooted from community support, hard to find work, etc.)? all of the above? none?

& when you talk about industry do you mean mainly private or public? here in the States like most of these things it obv. tends towards the former but I'd imagine it's the opposite in Europe. also you'd think that businessmen whose business is drugs are feeling the recession just like anyone but perhaps the drug trade plays by different rules (well of course but by different economic rules I mean). I dunno. your thoughts?

 

[nomadthethird]

there's one already surely? but I guess what you really mean is that you think it will grow by leaps & bounds.

not that I'm really disagreeing, just trying to follow your reasoning. so, it's that as more people lose their jobs/homes/etc., more despair, they'll do more drugs? that more people will turn to illicit sectors of the economy to make $, thus expanding the drug trade? that more people being displaced to urban slums will mean an increase in the # of drug users (uprooted from community support, hard to find work, etc.)? all of the above? none?

& when you talk about industry do you mean mainly private or public? here in the States like most of these things it obv. tends towards the former but I'd imagine it's the opposite in Europe. also you'd think that businessmen whose business is drugs are feeling the recession just like anyone but perhaps the drug trade plays by different rules (well of course but by different economic rules I mean). I dunno. your thoughts?

There is not a rehab industry in most of the world that resembles the one we have here. In most countries, all rehab is paid for or at very least subsidized by the State. No such luck here. It is a luxury good.

What I'm saying is that as the world economy continues to decline, it will become more and more lucrative to engage in the sale of black market goods like drugs. And not just street drugs--counterfeit antibiotics and other scripts are huge already and will only get more huge as adequate health care gets more and more expensive and out-of-reach for the average individual. But as drug use continues to increase, the pharmaceutical companies will be making more and more off our misery. I wouldn't be shocked if this proves to be one of the main drivers of the economy for the next ten years.

This plus the increase of depression and with it chronic pain (due to lost jobs, broken homes, broken families, homelessness, etc) is going to continue the drastic increase in prescription opiate abuse (and probably all kinds of prescription meds), which often leads to heroin abuse (as heroin is much cheaper and stronger than oxycontin or morphine) as more people are going to bounce in and out of expensive rehabs.

Alcoholism is probably going to continue to get more prevalent, too, along with speed addiction and cocaine addiction. Thing is, those are slightly easier and less expensive to treat--but don't tell the rehab industry that. They'll charge you just as much and keep you just as long and charge your insurance (if you have it) the same amount for treatment for a two-month cocaine "addiction" as they will for treatment for a ten-year heroin addiction.

"Treatment" for heroin addicts usually involves switching them from a drug that has few side effects to methadone or suboxone which will have your teeth falling out and give you hepatitis. But anything, anything to get those revenues in the private sector where they belong.

 

[nomadthethird]

I have a sort of vague ambition that involves starting a non-profit rehab sort of solution that runs on private donations. I'm going to medical school and I'll probably end up with an MD and specialize in psychiatry/addiction treatment (if I get into the right program and don't cave and go into an MD/PhD program instead--I change my specialty by the minute and I have a few years to decide).

The problem is, the non-profit sector runs on charitable donations (aka tax sheltered slush funds) from the private sector, and as we've seen the non-profit sector is as vulnerable to ponzi schemes as anyone else.

So I don't know, as the treatment modalities and medications get more sophisticated (as we've seen with opiate rehabilitation services--they're evolving, slowly) and effective, we want to make sure access is not a problem. If we let the fucking corporations take control like they already have of health insurance, it'll be a disaster.

 

[nomadthethird]

If we started basing our currencies on the cocaine or heroin standard, we'd be in great shape right now.

Cocaine is worth something like 20 times more than gold, ounce per ounce. Heroin is worth even more than that.

Cocaine is one of the few commodities in the world where the supply has never been able to keep up with the increasing demand, second only to oil. Demand just gets higher as prices get lower, wherever you have drug addict populations like you see in the U.S., you have competing drug dealers driving purity up and cost down.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

What I'm saying is that as the world economy continues to decline, it will become more and more lucrative to engage in the sale of black market goods like drugs. And not just street drugs--counterfeit antibiotics and other scripts are huge already and will only get more huge as adequate health care gets more and more expensive and out-of-reach for the average individual...

This plus the increase of depression...

yeh as I figured. that's a good point about unaffordable over-the-counter drugs (or counterfeit knockoffs of them) functioning as a parallel to the street drugs.

Alcoholism is probably going to continue to get more prevalent, too, along with speed addiction and cocaine addiction...

yeh, or you know maybe people will use less drugs cos they haven't got any $. I guess that just weeds out casual/recreational users though, not what you're talking about. you'd think eventually the US won't be the most lucrative market, but I that guess ties in to the globalization you mention. perhaps it's not directly related but in the long run I wonder - surely the international drug trade is just as dependent as anyone, if not more so, on cheap oil, both for transport & to run their factories. I dunno it just seems like a lot of this will became a moot point eventually. though by then there will probably larger, more immediate problems than drugs, like food & drinking water.

"Treatment" for heroin addicts usually involves switching them from a drug that has few side effects to methadone or suboxone which will have your teeth falling out and give you hepatitis. But anything, anything to get those revenues in the private sector where they belong.

I don't really know enough about it to comment intelligently. never been myself. when I was first out on my own in the travelling punk community there was a big divide btwn the kids who did junk & those who didn't, the former scared me straight like no DARE officer ever could - 22 yr olds with no teeth & scars from abscesses & hep C. anyway, I don't doubt your description (reminds me of A Scanner Darkly) though I'd bet like any disastrous private industry there are plenty of well-meaning people mixed in.

 

[padraig (u.s.)]

The problem is, the non-profit sector runs on charitable donations (aka tax sheltered slush funds) from the private sector, and as we've seen the non-profit sector is as vulnerable to ponzi schemes as anyone else.

...If we let the fucking corporations take control like they already have of health insurance, it'll be a disaster.

yeah I dunno not to be overly cynical (esp. about something I don't know too much about) but it really seems like it's fucked no matter what angle you approach from. surely it's more effective & cost-effective to get people not to do the drugs in the first place? which I realize is a futile struggle, but in terms of allocation of scarce resources perhaps they'd be better place towards preventative measures. clearly though this is your field of expertise & i'm just a dilettante. btw, good on ya for medical school, good luck & that.

 

[nomadthethird]

yeh, or you know maybe people will use less drugs cos they haven't got any $. I guess that just weeds out casual/recreational users though, not what you're talking about. you'd think eventually the US won't be the most lucrative market, but I that guess ties in to the globalization you mention. perhaps it's not directly related but in the long run I wonder - surely the international drug trade is just as dependent as anyone, if not more so, on cheap oil, both for transport & to run their factories. I dunno it just seems like a lot of this will became a moot point eventually. though by then there will probably larger, more immediate problems than drugs, like food & drinking water.



I don't really know enough about it to comment intelligently. never been myself. when I was first out on my own in the travelling punk community there was a big divide btwn the kids who did junk & those who didn't, the former scared me straight like no DARE officer ever could - 22 yr olds with no teeth & scars from abscesses & hep C. anyway, I don't doubt your description (reminds me of A Scanner Darkly) though I'd bet like any disastrous private industry there are plenty of well-meaning people mixed in.

You're exactly right--recreational users are immediately weeded out in this scheme, but at the same time, it's questionable whether it's even possible to "recreationally" use heroin or crack (powdered cocaine is a different story, the addiction mechanism is different, and it's rare BUT POSSIBLE alas to become physically dependent on it). I can't think of many people who succeeded in doing this, though many have tried. Addicts find a way to pay. Money is no object for an addict. It's really not that hard to come up with $100 a day, even if you have no real job. Junkie ingenuity is a remarkable thing. (Just think of what some of these people could do if they displaced their energy from morbid seek orientation to helping others--I've seen that happen, too.)

As things get bleaker in an American community, you see heroin, crack, or meth move in, and then it all goes straight to hell. It's just happening at a faster and faster rate, and moving outward from urban centers to the suburbs and beyond. (I wouldn't worry about oil affecting the drug trade, nothing else ever has. I don't think the energy crisis in the 70s really made a big dent. Heroin use rose drastically in the early 90s during that recession, too.)

Only 1 in 30 addicts ever makes it into "remission" or recovery. Addiction is like cancer, it can go away for a while but it's never gone. This is what makes it such a unique money-making opportunity from the standpoint of Big Pharma. You have a customer for life... one that you've just stolen from a guy who probably desperately needs the money to feed his children.