Metal Machine Music

[nomadthethird]

This thread is hilarious. I've read countless threads with all sorts of criticisms made of American attitudes and culture. I have no problem admitting that there are Americans with attitudes that I dislike and beliefs I find stupid and all sorts of cultural issues. I've never denied it, or jumped on anyone for making fun of the U.S./Americans.

But if someone dares to turn the critique back on Britain, it's like heresy.

 

[Sick Boy]

I am going to bow out now before this becomes 12 more pages of the same shit that happens to every thread around here these days but just to clarify my position is the following:

If you are a gangster rapper, it does not necessitate being a gangster (hence the oft-heard argument of who is "real"), and if you do happen to be one, it does not follow that everything you say in your songs is word-for-word autobiographical. This is OK though if it informs the message you are trying to get across. It's called "being an artist."

If this is not the case, and you're more on the autobiographical tip when you write songs, this is OK too (and preferred by some as this thread has shown). I didn't think Biggie fit strictly into this category based purely on things I had heard his Mother say in a documentary about his life growing up. Not because I am British, not because I am racist, not because I am not aware of urban crime, or not surrounded by it, and not because I could never know these things not being from New York City.

Perhaps you know more about the autobiographical details of Biggie's life, and perhaps his mother was a poor source. Fair play. I might have used a poor example. Why you decided to jump on that and call British people a bunch of ignorant hermetic ponces though is totally beyond me, but by all means, go about your business.

 

[vimothy]

What I'm getting at is that this is where I think the misunderstanding lies: the claim isn't that the social problems that hip-hop highlights aren't happening, but that rappers don't necessarily live the lives they portray in their music, just as an actor might not necessarily *be* a poor junky despite accurately representing some of the problems associated with heroin addiction.

 

[nomadthethird]

I am going to bow out now before this becomes 12 more pages of the same shit that happens to every thread around here these days but just to clarify my position is the following:

If you are a gangster rapper, it does not necessitate being a gangster (hence the oft-heard argument of who is "real"), and if you do happen to be one, it does not follow that everything you say in your songs is word-for-word autobiographical. This is OK though if it informs the message you are trying to get across. It's called "being an artist."

If this is not the case, and you're more on the autobiographical tip when you write songs, this is OK too (and preferred by some as this thread has shown). I didn't think Biggie fit strictly into this category based purely on things I had heard his Mother say in a documentary about his life growing up. Not because I am British, not because I am racist, not because I am not aware of urban crime, or not surrounded by it, and not because I could never know these things not being from New York City.

I never said anything about "autobiography", that has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was about the deeper socio-economic significance of the themes common in hip-hop.

It doesn't have to be strictly "autobiographical" to be a real, pressing issue that needs dealing with.

Beyond that though, Biggie's mother was a "pre-k" "teacher" (a position which requires no college degrees) in the inner-city, which is the equivalent of a minimum wage position. She probably did her best, I don't doubt that. But they lived in the "downtown Brooklyn" neighborhood, near the Fulton Mall, this is an area that is still known for its high crime rate and for being a drug mecca.

 

[Sick Boy]

I never said anything about "autobiography", that has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was about the deeper socio-economic significance of the themes common in hip-hop.

It doesn't have to be strictly "autobiographical" to be a real, pressing issue that needs dealing with.

OK! And did I ever once disagree with this? In fact, if anything, this was my point.

 

[nomadthethird]

What I'm getting at is that this is where I think the misunderstanding lies: the claim isn't that the social problems that hip-hop highlights aren't happening, but that rappers don't necessarily live the lives they portray in their music, just as an actor might not necessarily *be* a poor junky despite accurately representing some of the problems associated with heroin addiction.

But a lot of them did grow up that way, I would say that until the early 2000s, most of them really did. There are very few middle class black families, even still.

The notable exceptions, well-known in the U.S., are Sean Diddy Combs (whose father was a famous pimp and drug dealer in Harlem), who went to private schools and graduated from Howard University, Will Smith, who was from an upper middle class family, and Kanye West, whose parents were both prominent professors.

 

[nomadthethird]

OK! And did I ever once disagree with this? In fact, if anything, this was my point.

But like I said, I wasn't accusing you of saying these things. I'm talking about the mainstream press in the U.K.

 

[Sick Boy]

But like I said, I wasn't accusing you of saying these things. I'm talking about the mainstream press in the U.K.

OK, fine. My question is: why?

 

[nomadthethird]

OK, fine. My question is: why?

Because it seems like everytime I read a British magazine or even a lot of the blogs, I run into this again. The idea that it's all just about being "hard" and that black people who make hip-hop are, in fact, "racist" because they don't water down their message so it fits in better with what white America (or the rest of the world) would like to hear, or what's acceptable and less scary.

I think that hip-hop was instrumental in frightening white America into recognizing some of these issues, or at least letting them into the popular consciousness. Sometimes it's important to talk about the scary things.

 

[Sick Boy]

Because it seems like everytime I read a British magazine or even a lot of the blogs, I run into this again. The idea that it's all just about being "hard" and that black people who make hip-hop are, in fact, "racist" because they don't water down their message so it fits in better with what white America (or the rest of the world) would like to hear, or what's acceptable and less scary.

I think that hip-hop was instrumental in frightening white America into recognizing some of these issues, or at least letting them into the popular consciousness. Sometimes it's important to talk about the scary things.

By starting your own thread or something.

I dunno, you've clearly settled down from where you started this argument, but you did come in guns-blazing on a only marginally-related issue (the issue went from Lou Reed making dishonest music -> what dishonest music is-> stereotypes of black people) and you did use the category "British" mostly as a way to stand in opposition to posters on this board (myself included) than the mainstream media. Initially.

If you brought this up as a way to comment on the distance between author and situation this would've been on topic. This is just my two-cents, but I don't feel you always need to make a target to make a point.

 

[vimothy]

But a lot of them did grow up that way, I would say that until the early 2000s, most of them really did. There are very few middle class black families, even still.

This may well be true, if rappers are a representative sample of the black population in the US. But I certainly don't have any insight into that, and in any case, I'm not sure that a place a great deal of value in authenticity.

 

[nomadthethird]

This may well be true, if rappers are a representative sample of the black population in the US. But I certainly don't have any insight into that, and in any case, I'm not sure that a place a great deal of value in authenticity.

I don't either, and I think that hip-hop's flagrant disregard for concerns like "authenticity" are part of the problem some people have with it, from a sort of rockist perspective.

Even down to the whole "sampling" thing, that is considered very "inauthentic" and not "really" creative by a lot of old timers.

 

[nomadthethird]

By starting your own thread or something.

I dunno, you've clearly settled down from where you started this argument, but you did come in guns-blazing on a only marginally-related issue (the issue went from Lou Reed making dishonest music -> what dishonest music is-> stereotypes of black people) and you did use the category "British" mostly as a way to stand in opposition to posters on this board (myself included) than the mainstream media. Initially.

If you brought this up as a way to comment on the distance between author and situation this would've been on topic. This is just my two-cents, but I don't feel you always need to make a target to make a point.

Um, maybe you misunderstood what I was saying.

I came in making the same point I've been making. I do think it's related to the topic, at least loosely, because authenticity is related to the initial topic.

Either way, what I was saying is definitely related to the derailment about Tom Waits, and Biggie, and the claims people were trying to make about what is completely "fabricated" in Biggie's life, based on the fact that his mother lived in an apartment in a bad neighborhood, that apparently some didn't realize was and is a bad neighborhood.

 

[nomadthethird]

Besides, even if I were just talking about people on this board, look at what happened here!

As soon as I made the point that I was sick of people (most often in the mainstream British press) framing hip-hop in terms of people trying to look "hard"-- as this flagrantly misses the point that the issues highlighted by hip-hop are entirely real and even worse than many people want to admit--a bunch of British posters came on and made my point for me by posting things like:

my country is harder than your country

This is exactly what I mean by "cultural differences". What I was talking about has nothing to do with being hard for the sake of it, and everything to do with having to lead a certain lifestyle for socio-economic reasons that are unjust and unfair. Why the insistence on framing it this way? Where does this come from? It seems very odd to me.

 

[scottdisco]

No, I'm not minimizing violence, I'd NEVER do that.

I think it's a disgusting "minimizing" of very real and tangible social problems in the U.S. when British people, or anyone (since I've heard racist Americans make these claims as well, mostly old oens), try to act as if the problems brought to the fore by hip-hop artists are "fake" or "exaggerated"...

As anyone who has ever lived in an urban center in the U.S. can tell you, they are neither.

well you and i are in total agreement then

 

[nomadthethird]

Perhaps you know more about the autobiographical details of Biggie's life, and perhaps his mother was a poor source. Fair play. I might have used a poor example. Why you decided to jump on that and call British people a bunch of ignorant hermetic ponces though is totally beyond me, but by all means, go about your business.

Your words, not mine.

There are ignorant people in the U.K.? No way! Not my people. My people never have stupid, unfounded attitudes. My mainstream press never makes strange inflammatory, bigoted comments! There is never anything wrong with anything a British person might say or do. They could never possibly not know everything there is to know about the U.S.

This is what bothers me, very often, online and elsewhere. There are a lot of foreigners, not just British, but a lot of them, who think they know everything there is to know about American culture. It is very clear that they don't know everything about American culture, to anyone who actually lives in the U.S., but they don't seem to get this, no matter how many ways you try to explain it to them. This is offensive in the extreme, and I'm not going to pretend it isn't.

I have no problem admitting my country has problems, that the press here is full of shit, that there are racists here. Why is it so hard to admit that maybe there have been things written in the British or other presses that don't truly reflect or take into account the situation as it really exists in the U.S.? Is that really such a terrible thing to say?

 

[vimothy]

To be fair, Nomad, what you actually said was that "British people" don't believe that crack dealers exist and "British people act like drugs are this big bad evil thing". When, in fact, drugs are probably a banal and everyday fact for most posters (if maybe less frequent for the more senior/lazy amongst us ), British or otherwise. Hell, there's a guy going up and down my street all day with a trolley and a sign. Going on about drugs, and how many drugs you do, and how many drugs there are in your neighbourhood -- it is a bit trite and even childish. Hence the, "my country is harder than your country", joke.

 

[nomadthethird]

To be fair, Nomad, what you actually said was that "British people" don't believe that crack dealers exist and "British people act like drugs are this big bad evil thing". When, in fact, drugs are probably a banal and everyday fact for most posters (if maybe less frequent for the more senior/lazy amongst us ), British or otherwise. Hell, there's a guy going up and down my street all day with a trolley and a sign. Going on about drugs, and how many drugs you do, and how many drugs there are in your neighbourhood -- it is a bit trite and even childish. Hence the, "my country is harder than your country", joke.

It was offensive in the extreme to hear what sounded to me like someone claiming that no one who is involved in the music industry actually lived in abject poverty in the middle of one of the worst neighborhoods in the U.S. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to pretend I haven't heard this same thing from a lot of British people, here and elsewhere. I have a right to stand up for things that I believe are right or wrong.

I didn't say anything about what drugs I do in this thread. Nothing. Not one fucking thing. This discussion has nothing to do with the drugs I do or don't do.

I also made no comments about my neighborhood or anything about my personal life. I talked in very general terms about the widespread drug use and availability of drugs in major urban centers (and everywhere) in the U.S.

There is a multi-billion dollar rehab industry here. If you don't believe that it's a huge and real problem here, check out some medical websites that have reliable data on the matter. It's a problem like we've never seen in U.S. history right now.

 

[nomadthethird]

It is trite and childish to pretend you know how someone grew up who you've never met and clearly know nothing about, too.

It's trite and childish to act as if no one can ever discuss drugs as a socio-economic effect without immediately resorting to stupid ad hominem insults and missing the point repeatedly.

 

[vimothy]

Yeah, sorry, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, I'm just trying to explain that when you say -- British people don't know anything about drugs, but round here we do it all the time, and it's not a big deal -- it sounds a bit like, "you're stupid and we're not", or even, "my country is harder than your country".