Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
That's it man, you've nearly got his pants off with these negs, now move in on the target and destroy!
I wonder if it's coincidence that both swears and I have ref'd Tom Cruise on this page.
Books with life-changing qualities
- Thread starter baboon2004
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I wonder if it's coincidence that both swears and I have ref'd Tom Cruise on this page.
i bet you can make eachother shoot lasers out of your eyes.
Ok fair enough, I'll concede on that. Cruel manipulation is cruel manipulation, it just really depends on what you consider cruel and what you consider just being good with women. Strategy on its own isn't a bad thing, I don't think. Within any community there will be dickheads, but I don't think that the vast majority of these people believe they are on "deep, mystical quests." I'd imagine the vast majority of them just want to be really good at something that causes a lot of men a great deal of anxiety and insecurity - speaking with and seducing women. Nothing wrong with that, certainly not from the standpoint of the woman who has someone approach them with a bit more creativity and finesse than the opening line "hey babe, lemme buy you a drink."
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
right - I'm not making the claim, which would be silly, that I personally have a better handle on what is cruel & manipulative vs. what's having game/being suave, & certainly there is a fair bit of subjectivity & gray area involved. actually I think we should perhaps dispense with "manipulative", it's too ambiguous, in the sense that people are always manipulating each other to their own ends whether they're conscious of it or not.
I just see a vast difference between individual men wanting to become more comfortable around women - the kinds of hopeless cases who go on reality TV shows - and entire communities of guys devoted, in the abstract (that is, removed from the actual playing field itself - forums, books, seminars, etc.), to developing pseudoscientific techniques in order to get women into bed with them, if you see what I mean. It's one thing to want to become more confident - entirely another to use (garbled bits of)psychology & bollocks like "patterning" to essentially con women into sleeping with you. also, at what point is the mark sleeping with the pick-up techniques as opposed to the person using them?
This is actually what bothers me most - that all these man are so insecure about this stuff that they have to resort to such ludicrous means to feel comfortable talking to women. Not that I'm mocking them for their insecurity, to the contrary it just makes me sad for them, that they're so desperate they have to turn to jerks like Mystery or whoever, who IMO will fill their heads up with exactly the wrong kinds of stuff...
also, I dunno, I'll admit I've never really had this problem. I was quite promiscuous when I was younger, not so much the couple years, either way I've always felt pretty comfortable just being myself & letting the chips fall where they may. frankly I wouldn't want to sleep with a woman I'd "pulled" - not b/c I feel I'd be taking advantage of her just cos...I dunno, it'd be like cheating on a test, I'd rather earn it on my own merit yunno?
baboon2004
Darned cockwombles.
but i think 'merit' in the way you seem to be using it is a bit of a twistable concept - the reasons why a woman decides to sleep with a man (and any of the other possible combinations) are numerous, and i don't think too many of them are simply based on an assessment of the other person's objective personal merits.
comelately
Wild Horses
The concepts of 'merit' and 'passing a test' are important issues here. I will post at length tomorrow, but another link I make is with PUAs and the 'borrowed letter/de-gene-rate' concept from Gattaca. The PUAs are 'misrepresenting' themselves as genetic alpha-males and I think that triggers quite the primal response in some people.
One interesting thing about Magnolia is that Tom Cruise lied about his character, saying it was not based on Ross Jeffries.
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
no that's fair - I meant I would know if it was on my own merits or not tho, not the person I was hitting on. tho also that bit about merit wasn't a critique, just a personal feeling.
I think what I object to more anyway is these dudes passing themselves off, not as alpha males (which I'm not much of a believer in, at least in such a clearly demarcated fashion - tho that's an interesting point re: Gattaca), but as gatekeepers of something that is mostly snake oil in the first place (like all generic self-help stuff). I guess - even if there are alpha males who gives a shit about being an "alpha male"? I mean, if you're that worried about the size of your dick, so to speak, then clearly you've got other, more pressuing issues.
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STN
sou'wester
Hmm, well all this is new to me, and looks a bit lame, but I definitely have ramped up/over-presented parts of my character (literary! morally upright! have been skiing!) to appeal to women. The most laughable of these is where I claimed to be an inch taller than I really am. God knows why I did this. Should I have then bamboozled her by saying I'm an inch shorter than I really am? Have I missed a trick here?
When I was younger, a lot of males I knew would go on and on about who they were going to pull next week, how women had told them they'd never been fucked as hard, etc. They always did well but it was fucking boring listening to them going on about grabbing minge and slurring me as a homosexual.
Then I got to 13 and realised there were two paths - 1) go along with them, or 2) get into obscure industrial bands and lust after goth chicks ("freaks!") who wrote poems about playing cricket with the devil, and who dressed like Vampira on a six-day bender. The only 'male qualities' these girls seemed to demand were things like looking OK in a Russian hat, being able to vomit in a telephone box and taking the piss out of your mad father's homophobia. It was cool - until they suddenly decided they wanted to work in airline management after all, or had nervous breakdowns.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is the whole PUA thing sounds like people who chose path 2 suddenly deciding they want to go down path 1. Except without the kebabs and domestic violence. Sorry, but once you've chosen your path, it's extremely difficult to turn back.
Then I got to 13 and realised there were two paths - 1) go along with them, or 2) get into obscure industrial bands and lust after goth chicks ("freaks!") who wrote poems about playing cricket with the devil, and who dressed like Vampira on a six-day bender. The only 'male qualities' these girls seemed to demand were things like looking OK in a Russian hat, being able to vomit in a telephone box and taking the piss out of your mad father's homophobia. It was cool - until they suddenly decided they wanted to work in airline management after all, or had nervous breakdowns.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is the whole PUA thing sounds like people who chose path 2 suddenly deciding they want to go down path 1. Except without the kebabs and domestic violence. Sorry, but once you've chosen your path, it's extremely difficult to turn back.
Mr. Tea
Let's Talk About Ceps
Rookie error: the word you want is 'longer', not 'taller'.
Ahem.
On the point about emotional manipulation vs. plain ol' putting the moves on, it's probably worth pointing out that it's not as if women can't be sexually/emotionally manipulative, too. The main difference is they don't need books with 'expert advice' on how to do it or forums where they can compare tips. (It just comes naturally to them, the harlots!*)
(*j/k)
(Mr. Tea: for all your tone-lowering needs, since 2006)
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comelately
Wild Horses
Really interesting from Martin. I'd say I am kinda one of those pathswappers. I tried to go back to Path 1, it's doable but difficult. I'm a third-pather now, but I'm going to a 'Path 2' night tonight. Who has all the sexual power in these 'Path 2' groups - don't they often have a bunch of fugly girls able to punch significantly above their weight and generally rely on weedy boys for validation?
"Progressive PUA Examples"
Alan Roger Currie is a hardline anti-manipulation guy. He basically advocates no bullshit/secution whatsoever as you're playing a game the girl is better than you at. He's interesting.
Sean Messenger runs LVO3 and it seems pretty progressive from what I've seen. AMP (authentic man program) are similar.
Juggler/Charisma Arts can arguably still be manipulative (fake 'qualifying'), but it's emphasis on 'relate and reward' certainly breaks less taboos than MysteryMethod.
"Progressive PUA Examples"
Alan Roger Currie is a hardline anti-manipulation guy. He basically advocates no bullshit/secution whatsoever as you're playing a game the girl is better than you at. He's interesting.
Sean Messenger runs LVO3 and it seems pretty progressive from what I've seen. AMP (authentic man program) are similar.
Juggler/Charisma Arts can arguably still be manipulative (fake 'qualifying'), but it's emphasis on 'relate and reward' certainly breaks less taboos than MysteryMethod.
mixed_biscuits
_________________________
If you come across as a Path 1 character to Path 2ers whilst making it clear you know the rules of the Path 2 game too, you can rule.
john eden
male pale and stale
It depends what you find attractive in a woman.
is this a euphemism?
Totally. At 16, I genuinely thought (and still do) that Kathleen Hanna was 100 times sexier than the playground consensus on Michelle Pfeifer and Cindy Crawford - and I'd still say that even if I'd been born with Roger Moore's looks and drove a ferrari. Though I think Kathleen H would probably wanna punch my lights out for typing that!
But what interests me is this: unlike those who naturally batter down women's defences with whatever it is they've got, and then fuck and chuck (and I do know females who still pine over 'bad boys' who treated them badly but made them feel 'excited' - I'm not going to get into the 'moral' implications here), you're essentially 'learning' some behavioural patterns - is this right? (I haven't really looked into any of this, besides a few writings on NLP). A lot of the people I knew who were just after fucks (and did very well at it) couldn't really explain what they were doing - but you seem to be studying this like a science.
For all you PUAs: if your female 'target' was to discover your PUA forums, find out about your techniques, see you writing stuff like this on the internet, or catch you reading books on the subject, surely their attraction for you would completely evaporate?
For all you PUAs: if your female 'target' was to discover your PUA forums, find out about your techniques, see you writing stuff like this on the internet, or catch you reading books on the subject, surely their attraction for you would completely evaporate?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
fair play then you made your point. I still don't think that just because there some progressive types it absolves everyone - not that you're suggesting that. I just mean - I have a hard time believing it's just a case of a few bad apples in the bunch. it just makes sense that a culture devoted to picking up women is going to attract a certain % of womanizers, the same way a police force is bound to attract a certain % of thugs who just want free license to crack heads.
look & then I'm sorry if I misread you - surely tho you can see how absurd it sounds when some dude comes along going off about men struggling to find themselves in a post-feminist world & how he's teaching women to squirt & stuff?
I dunno if yer joking but that's a ridiculous stereotype, akin to me saying that all the people in singles bars are shallow, implanted/botoxed/fake tanned douchebags.
also I'm curious - why does one party have to hold all the sexual power?
padraig (u.s.)
a monkey that will go ape
I know what you're getting at of course but that's nonsense - or rather that's exactly how it seems when you're 13 but then you grow & hopefully realize you don't have to imprison yourself in one constrictive path or another.
bollocks. even using these "paths" as shorthand for what is actually a much more complex spectrum, most people on 2 that I know would consciously shun the 1 trying to crossover, all the moreso for the act of trying to fake it. furthermore there is something of the flipside - elements of novelty, slumming, adventure, etc. - when I was younger & ultra-crusty ("dogs on hemp strings types" you English might call it - patch pants, studded jacket, dreadhawk, huge plugs, piece of deer antler through my septum & so on) I used to hook up with straight laced college girls roughly as often as punk girls.