[ldn] 'ardkore continuum event
- Thread starter john eden
- Start date
How perceptive of them.
Just kiddding.
What Kode and Kodwo were doing made a lot more sense as an attempt to map where we are now and identify new tendencies.
Faintly?
But I think Simon has addressed this. For him the nuum is the recognition of a certain tradition or continuity running through these musics from Hardcore Rave to 2-Step Garage. That's the sense in which he says it is an observable fact and not a theory. And this doesn't, as some seem to feel is the case, mean to exclude the acknowledgement of the existence of other influences and continua or whatever. As I understand it anyway.
mistadubalina
Banned
the continuity and tradition from ardkore to dubstep lies in the use of its most potent sonic signifier. The BREAKBEAT.
Dubstep continues in the tradition only if you acknowledge the breakstep influence as a legitimate pre cursor and major influence on the sound via labels like hotflush and storming productions and through artists like toasty, caspa, distance and reso. To follow its pure half step canon is to exclude it from the continuum. However, the line blurs when you mix up halfstep and "fullstep" in the same tunes and by the same artists.
Excluding the breakbeat as percussive elements explains why funky with its bashment style beats isnt following in ardkores tradition and as much as 'wonky' isnt even a genre, for the sake of expediency it also explains why it would qualify with zomby, classified as a w***y artist's, use of breakbeats in some of his tunes. As far as i've heard joker and gemmy dont use breakbeats tho. Inclusion does however give blackdown a convenient 'in' and validates his pet wonk descriptor to the ardkore tradition. Personally i see those artists championed as vanguards for the w**k falling within dubsteps sonic boundaries.
Were i then able to put a question to Mr Reynolds it would be. Why, if you're using the breakbeat as the most recognisable signifier to chart a line of continuity between genres did you not start it with its first use by UK artists? Is it because in starting with ardkore as beginning of your continuum it places it solely within the confines of londons rave/drug culture of which you were looking to promote as the UK's most important breeding ground for new musical traditions to the exclusion of other significant breakbeat traditions initiated by the likes of madchester ?
Dubstep continues in the tradition only if you acknowledge the breakstep influence as a legitimate pre cursor and major influence on the sound via labels like hotflush and storming productions and through artists like toasty, caspa, distance and reso. To follow its pure half step canon is to exclude it from the continuum. However, the line blurs when you mix up halfstep and "fullstep" in the same tunes and by the same artists.
Excluding the breakbeat as percussive elements explains why funky with its bashment style beats isnt following in ardkores tradition and as much as 'wonky' isnt even a genre, for the sake of expediency it also explains why it would qualify with zomby, classified as a w***y artist's, use of breakbeats in some of his tunes. As far as i've heard joker and gemmy dont use breakbeats tho. Inclusion does however give blackdown a convenient 'in' and validates his pet wonk descriptor to the ardkore tradition. Personally i see those artists championed as vanguards for the w**k falling within dubsteps sonic boundaries.
Were i then able to put a question to Mr Reynolds it would be. Why, if you're using the breakbeat as the most recognisable signifier to chart a line of continuity between genres did you not start it with its first use by UK artists? Is it because in starting with ardkore as beginning of your continuum it places it solely within the confines of londons rave/drug culture of which you were looking to promote as the UK's most important breeding ground for new musical traditions to the exclusion of other significant breakbeat traditions initiated by the likes of madchester ?
john eden
male pale and stale
Nope.
mistadubalina
Banned
yup!
D
droid
Guest
Er... hes not using the breakbeat though. Garage doesn't primarily use sampled breakbeats does it?
If i was asked what the main 'sonic signifier' that numm genres have in common id have to say that its in the use of bass - its interaction with percussion and the fact that (like reggae), the melody is in the bass.
Can you elaborate on your 'racial co-option' theory in relation to the fact that all the 'nuum genres feature a mix of black, white and asian producers and artists?
If i was asked what the main 'sonic signifier' that numm genres have in common id have to say that its in the use of bass - its interaction with percussion and the fact that (like reggae), the melody is in the bass.
Can you elaborate on your 'racial co-option' theory in relation to the fact that all the 'nuum genres feature a mix of black, white and asian producers and artists?
Yeah it's not about the breakbeat to that degree at all.
And as you say dubalina it's a signifier, maybe what it stands for really is a punk / hip-hop approach to using any available means of producing rhythm, but that doesn't have to be breakbeats.
To a degree I think the breakstep side of things was already kind of consciously distancing itself from rave music with ambitions to be sophisticated, jazzy, adult.
What Toasty and so on were doing was taking bits of that maybe but reconnecting it with a rougher and more psychedelic rave thing.
And as you say dubalina it's a signifier, maybe what it stands for really is a punk / hip-hop approach to using any available means of producing rhythm, but that doesn't have to be breakbeats.
To a degree I think the breakstep side of things was already kind of consciously distancing itself from rave music with ambitions to be sophisticated, jazzy, adult.
What Toasty and so on were doing was taking bits of that maybe but reconnecting it with a rougher and more psychedelic rave thing.
mistadubalina
Banned
from shut up and dance's early breakbeat excursions as typical of ardkore to jungle to 2steps stuttery breakbeat garage and by way of nu skool to breakstep and on to dubstep is a direct line of continuity...
...without the breakbeat as unifying signifier all links are tenuous at best and ardkore as fixed starting point ceases to exist. if you use bass or tempo as the unification factor then you open the door to house, hiphop and all manner of bastardization and a direct line then becomes solely an electronica lattice driven by technology
re: the 'racial' co option thing. By my definition in solely using the breakbeat as signifier for not only the nuum but for black music in general. In essence all those other ethnicities jacked the beat cos as we all know it started in afriKKKA...ka ka
...without the breakbeat as unifying signifier all links are tenuous at best and ardkore as fixed starting point ceases to exist. if you use bass or tempo as the unification factor then you open the door to house, hiphop and all manner of bastardization and a direct line then becomes solely an electronica lattice driven by technology
re: the 'racial' co option thing. By my definition in solely using the breakbeat as signifier for not only the nuum but for black music in general. In essence all those other ethnicities jacked the beat cos as we all know it started in afriKKKA...ka ka
D
droid
Guest
But 2 step does not primarily use sampled breakbeats. There's skittery beat patterns sure, but that's not the same as a breakbeat sampled from a funk/R+B/soul record.
There is nothing but the most tenuous continuity between garage and nu breaks - different personnel, different audience, different vibes (no reggae in nu-breaks)... and if the breakbeat is your guide - where's fatboy slim in your equation?
All music started in Africa, so all music is 'black' music.
Reductio ad absurdo .
There is nothing but the most tenuous continuity between garage and nu breaks - different personnel, different audience, different vibes (no reggae in nu-breaks)... and if the breakbeat is your guide - where's fatboy slim in your equation?
All music started in Africa, so all music is 'black' music.
Reductio ad absurdo .
mistadubalina
Banned
a breakbeat is a breakbeat whether sampled or not.
I wouldn't call the early FWD sound of breakbeat garage by dubstep pioneers zed bias and oris jay's continuity as darqwan tenuous given that garage/dubstep BPM's operate in the same range as breakstep/tearout pioneers like quest/mutiny, deekline which were part of a scene cross pollenated by the likes of stanton warriors as part of nu skool
fatboy slim fits into the lattice by way of either sampladelic breakbeat or bigbeat but to be honest i preferred his beats international guise.
percussive rhythm initiated by james brown thru the funky drummer and the likes as the genesis of the breakbeats were representative of black music and by way of slavery in america and the use of music to unite black people with it makes breakbeat based music essentially black and originating from africa
I wouldn't call the early FWD sound of breakbeat garage by dubstep pioneers zed bias and oris jay's continuity as darqwan tenuous given that garage/dubstep BPM's operate in the same range as breakstep/tearout pioneers like quest/mutiny, deekline which were part of a scene cross pollenated by the likes of stanton warriors as part of nu skool
fatboy slim fits into the lattice by way of either sampladelic breakbeat or bigbeat but to be honest i preferred his beats international guise.
percussive rhythm initiated by james brown thru the funky drummer and the likes as the genesis of the breakbeats were representative of black music and by way of slavery in america and the use of music to unite black people with it makes breakbeat based music essentially black and originating from africa
mistadubalina
Banned
it ceases to be 'ardkore if its not fuelled by a breakbeat.
hiphop in its earliest form was nothing but breaks it later de-evolved from there to become what is seemingly now just boring ass boom bap by purist definition.
Well a breakbeat in this sense is a sampled (or scratched) and repeated break from a recording. The effect of that could be reproduced in other ways but that's what it means. The drummers who played on Think or Amen Brother were not playing breakbeats, they just happened to play some breaks that people thought were worth replaying over and over again.
So maybe you have a different understanding of what breakbeat means.
Early breakbeat garage totally co-existed with stuff that was similar in other ways but wasn't using breakbeats.
So maybe you have a different understanding of what breakbeat means.
Early breakbeat garage totally co-existed with stuff that was similar in other ways but wasn't using breakbeats.
Hip-hop used turntables, but not always breakbeats.
Very early on hip-hop is using drum machines, even drummers.
Lots of hardcore hip-hop uses drum machines.
'seemingly now boring ass boom bap by purist definition' - I'm really not sure what you mean.
Can't help feeling this is all beside some point or other.
mistadubalina
Banned
a breakbeat can be the looped fill break between two parts of a song as set up by the drummer to mark a transition. Thats what hiphop architects kool herc and GMflash did. Afrika bam put his own spin on things but still his best later works were done with breakbeats via leftfield and uberzone.
if you randomise this folder of tunes
http://pollywannacracka.blogspot.com/2008/09/breakbeat-lattice.html
it all makes perfect sense especially when you listen to the tunes out of order and not as some linear continuum.
if you randomise this folder of tunes
http://pollywannacracka.blogspot.com/2008/09/breakbeat-lattice.html
it all makes perfect sense especially when you listen to the tunes out of order and not as some linear continuum.
mistadubalina
Banned
gee...how long did it take you to realise i was talking about breakbeats and just exactly what the fuck did you think i was talking about ?...music with shredded cheese in them?