nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
as it's impossible to follow Tea with that post, i shall just say



i like the sound of that, heh-heh.. ...i have no idea if this is correct, but i like it.

I don't know, you can read Zizek, but if you've never read Lacan or Hegel you'd be pretty erm lost. You'd have to backtrack at some point and read source texts I'd imagine...

Badiou I have no idea how you'd get a thing out of him if you'd never read classical philosophy...and Heidegger...unless you're interested in inspirational Leftist soundbites because he's good at those, too...like a white Maoist Oprah...
 

MrFence

Oh the humanity.
MrFence: I like early Deleuze but D&G is just more fun to read. And more interesting because I care more about psychoanalysis than I do disputes about fucking metaphysics.

I had to understand Deleuze's ontology first to really get how important the rest of it all is, but it's wonderful how you can approach his/their texts from so many angles.

Deleuze gives us a way to think about matter, thought, action as all real, without having to add another dimension or embed them in some kind of Cartesian frame of reference. Once you grasp Univocity then all sorts of other concepts emerge and things cease to be static.

y...and Heidegger...unless you're interested in inspirational Leftist soundbites because he's good at those, too...like a white Maoist Oprah...

Eh?
 

pajbre

Well-known member
has anyone read much solo/late guattari? the three ecologies, soft subversions, molecular revolution in brazil... at this point i'm starting to prefer him.
 

pajbre

Well-known member
the few pieces translated to english by suely rolnik, the brazilian psychoanalyst/art critic/theorist with whom guattari wrote molecular revolution..., are pretty amazing as well.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
the few pieces translated to english by suely rolnik, the brazilian psychoanalyst/art critic/theorist with whom guattari wrote molecular revolution..., are pretty amazing as well.

The Three Ecologies has been one I've gone back to now and again for the past couple of years, as I have to Soft Subversions. I just downloaded Molecular Revolutions, and I'm just thirty pages in, but already I can say it's an absolute must-read if you're interested in Deleuze's work with Guattari. Where Mille Plateaux is poetic and expansive and very difficult for some people without a theory/psychoanalysis background to comprehend, MR is very direct and the systematic in its (first-person) presentation of the Guattarian psychoanalytical model (one that's been co-opted piecemeal in the U.S., fwiw).

It also happens to refute almost every last bogus criticism I've seen of D&G in this thread and elsewhere in the blogosphere. Guattari explicitly talks about trying to formulate a notion of "group desire" that isn't reliant on just triangulations like mommy-daddy-child, analyst-analysand-transference, etc. He also talks about how many phenomena Freud describes as integral to the Oedipal stage are simply based on cultural predilections/contingencies particular to his time, and need not be adhered to as if they are prescriptions for analysts. In fact, since there's no ethical imperative to keep society centered around incest taboos and "castration" anxiety, we should actively seek to change these so-called structural apparatuses, or recognize the ways in which they've already changed in our praxes.

There are valid criticisms to be made of both Deleuze and Guattari, and "D&G" for that matter, but it never ceases to amaze me how off-base most contemporary critics are with their attacks. It's as if they're reading a completely different text than I am when I hear their reactions to it. Sometimes I suspect it's willful misreading motivated by subterranean (unconscious, hehe) political forces.
 

pajbre

Well-known member
There are valid criticisms to be made of both Deleuze and Guattari, and "D&G" for that matter, but it never ceases to amaze me how off-base most contemporary critics are with their attacks. It's as if they're reading a completely different text than I am when I hear their reactions to it. Sometimes I suspect it's willful misreading motivated by subterranean (unconscious, hehe) political forces.

couldn't agree more, and that goes for the whole of 'philosophical' and theoretical debate. what i see time and again, online and in the academy, is this ridiculous need to assert the intellectual milieu 'we' are in (of course this milieu almost NEVER includes writers from countries outside europe or the US). 'now it's time for speculative realism to rise! let us wake from our deleuzian slumber!' (or whatever, not to pick on speculative realism.) as if concepts aren't tools and technologies and techniques that can work transversally or not, be re-appropriated or not. all the heavy, sober, moral hand-wringing amongst theorists does my head in.
 

mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
couldn't agree more, and that goes for the whole of 'philosophical' and theoretical debate. what i see time and again, online and in the academy, is this ridiculous need to assert the intellectual milieu 'we' are in (of course this milieu almost NEVER includes writers from countries outside europe or the US). 'now it's time for speculative realism to rise! let us wake from our deleuzian slumber!' (or whatever, not to pick on speculative realism.) as if concepts aren't tools and technologies and techniques that can work transversally or not, be re-appropriated or not. all the heavy, sober, moral hand-wringing amongst theorists does my head in.

Great post. I pretty much stopped talking about theory or philosophy to anyone but myself after someone told me that I hadn't read Deleuze 'right' and I just thought, oh, I'm sick of this, I'm just gonna keep it to myself. It's all so macho.
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
Great post. I pretty much stopped talking about theory or philosophy to anyone but myself after someone told me that I hadn't read Deleuze 'right' and I just thought, oh, I'm sick of this, I'm just gonna keep it to myself. It's all so macho.

Exxaccctlyyy. (I sure hope I never said that to you, btw. I used to be a lot like that.)

pajbre said:
couldn't agree more, and that goes for the whole of 'philosophical' and theoretical debate. what i see time and again, online and in the academy, is this ridiculous need to assert the intellectual milieu 'we' are in (of course this milieu almost NEVER includes writers from countries outside europe or the US). 'now it's time for speculative realism to rise! let us wake from our deleuzian slumber!' (or whatever, not to pick on speculative realism.) as if concepts aren't tools and technologies and techniques that can work transversally or not, be re-appropriated or not. all the heavy, sober, moral hand-wringing amongst theorists does my head in.

Yours and Sloane's posts together go straight to the heart of why, I think, D&G (esp G) are ultimately distasteful to a certain sort of academic philosopher, to the academic establishment of philosophy--because they radically 'de-center' the philosophical cosmos and take the 'text' and the 'moral/ethical subject' out of the center of philosophical discourse. They [D&G] also fully took on the findings of contemporary science in ways SR pretends to, but without even needing to make an ethical injunction of this, or make it into some kind of new twist on "metaphysical" woo. It's funny to see some so-called speculative realists constantly ragging on deconstruction (which they also get wrong, imo--they think it's text-centric rather than text-destabilizing), when they themselves are the worst sort of cultural reductionists.

Not that I'm totally averse to some of what falls under the heading of speculative realism, but I just find the way its set up in opposition to D&G and Derrida sort of lame. I realize this is typical of philosophy, and that's why I switched to medicine ultimately. I just don't give a fuck about who's "right" about metaphysics. I couldn't care less.
 
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mistersloane

heavy heavy monster sound
Exxaccctlyyy. (I sure hope I never said that to you, btw. I used to be a lot like that.)



Yours and Sloane's posts together go straight to the heart of why, I think, D&G (esp G) are ultimately distasteful to a certain sort of academic philosopher, to the academic establishment of philosophy--because they radically 'de-center' the philosophical cosmos and take the 'text' and the 'moral/ethical subject' out of the center of philosophical discourse. They also fully took on the findings of contemporary science in ways SR pretends to, but without even needing to make an ethical injunction of this, or make it into some kind of new twist on "metaphysical" woo. It's funny to see some so-called speculative realists constantly ragging on deconstruction (which they also get wrong, imo--they think it's text-centric rather than text-destabilizing), when they themselves are the worst sort of cultural reductionists.

Not that I'm totally averse to some of what falls under the heading of speculative realism, but I just find the way its set up in opposition to D&G and Derrida sort of lame. I realize this is typical of philosophy, and that's why I switched to medicine ultimately. I just don't give a fuck about who's "right" about metaphysics. I couldn't care less.


Lol no totally wasn't you!

I kinda really like the SR stuff from what I've read and can understand, it's all so fabulously 6th form (um, senior high school) nihilistic...I. read. science fiction. and. I'm. straight. and. I. like. music. that. is clever. Makes me laugh.

I love the idea that there's a right way to do anything, it's so great, it's like 'Sez who?'
 

nomadthethird

more issues than Time mag
I had to understand Deleuze's ontology first to really get how important the rest of it all is, but it's wonderful how you can approach his/their texts from so many angles.

Deleuze gives us a way to think about matter, thought, action as all real, without having to add another dimension or embed them in some kind of Cartesian frame of reference. Once you grasp Univocity then all sorts of other concepts emerge and things cease to be static.

True...Deleuzian monism (which some would say is a misnomer) is important to his later stuff with Guattari.
 

Line of Flight

New member
Wow... this site totally disappeared from my consciousness, and I find it again to see that the discussion on Deleuze continues. Very nice.
 
Genuine answer: Get A Thousand Plateaus, read the Massumi introduction and rhizome chapter a dozen times, experimenting with different levels of wakefulness and sobriety. Don't move on until you can imagine becoming-orchid. Never use the word rhizome in conversation if you want people to keep listening to you. Skip ahead to the part about submarines and re-read the line "never think a smooth space will suffice to save us" (or whatever). Apply to step one. Then start wandering around the rest of it - metalurgists, refrains, war machines, wolf men, etc. Pick one you like and try building yourself a machine with it. If you're happy with the results then try a few more. In that case, be prepared to defend yourself or hide your work because D&G are less fashionable these days, having been replaced by smarter men who keep their socks in kitchen drawers and hang pictures of Stalin over their DVD collections.

Ive just started to read this thread (yes the title is great). The above method is uncanny, it speaks of common encounters with capitalism and schizophrenia, a little pessimistic though.

Im going to read the rest of the tread now.
 

slowtrain

Well-known member
Very interesting thread (even if I still can't comprehend 70% of it, hahah)

But... Is it bad I still can't manage to divorce Deleuze and Guattari from these guys:

DolceGabbana.jpg
 

nomos

Administrator
The above method is uncanny, it speaks of common encounters with capitalism and schizophrenia, a little pessimistic though.
Ha! Forgot about that. It's not mean to be pessimistic - more autobiographical actually, and poking fun at theory trends in grad school.

Just re-reading Guattari's Chaosmosis at the moment.
 

luka

Well-known member
i just read an essay that claims deleuze talks of the state as 'scripting machine' which sounds like burroughs and interested me but google suggests that he said no such thing. does anyone know if he ever used that phrase. if so could you elaborate on it.
 
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