empty mirror

remember the jackalope
Though since I can't speak (let alone read) Japanese, and - on a purely statistical basis - you probably can't either, I guess that's rather academic. Personally I like the way the books are written: there's a calmness to them, a 'quietism' to borrow a word someone used in the 'book club' thread to discuss Sebald's Austerlitz - the mind-bending weirdness speaks for itself, and I think a neutral-sounding sort of prose complements that really well. Perhaps "understated" would be better than "neutral".

that's fair. i like that "quietism" in murakami, too. it sometimes feels too effortless, both for the author and reader---this leads to suspicion (on my part) and guilt. not sure why i have to feel like i am being punished by an author to enjoy his/her work but i find that is often the dynamic i seek out.

abused reader support group anyone?
 

jenks

thread death
that's fair. i like that "quietism" in murakami, too. it sometimes feels too effortless, both for the author and reader---this leads to suspicion (on my part) and guilt. not sure why i have to feel like i am being punished by an author to enjoy his/her work but i find that is often the dynamic i seek out.

abused reader support group anyone?

Murakami translated Gatsby into Japanese. It's interesting how on the book threads we come back to Murakami - I think I said before that my problem with him is that he appears to be saying more than he is, he seems to gesture towards depth without really arriving there. I, too, enjoy his prose style but, like reading Auster, I feel like he never gets very far. I suppose that's why I do like DFW because, it seems to me, he really does something with all the po-mo narrative tricks.

As to Gatsby - it is quite simply my favourite novel. As has been pointed out, the age when you read these things matters. Also, certain themes in Lit just fit and for me I can find no greater theme than that of unrequited love. I understand if people find him sentimental, unduly romantic in aspect but that is what I love - emotionally stunted as I am I love the ridiculousness of Gatsby himself. Finally, and this will sound old fashioned here, I love FSF's fidelity to language, the way he treats the novel like a Keatsian Ode - when you have read few pages aloud it's a revelation as to just how musical his language can be.

At the enchanted metropolitan twilight I felt a haunting loneliness sometimes, and felt it in others — poor young clerks who loitered in front of windows waiting until it was time for a solitary restaurant dinner — young clerks in the dusk, wasting the most poignant moments of night and life.

Of course FSF inspired a range of very dull writers who just couldn't pull this kind if thing off but that's not his fault!
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Of course FSF inspired a range of very dull writers who just couldn't pull this kind if thing off but that's not his fault!"
This tends to be the case with almost anyone who is really good in any field - they have lots of less talented followers.
 

BareBones

wheezy
great gatsby was probably the first book i read at school that really got me into reading for pleasure, not just for classes, and it remains one of my favourite novels. i mean i read a lot for pleasure before that too, but mainly crappy horror books and stuff. I guess i mean that gatsby was the first novel i read in which i could really appreciate the beauty of the prose itself, and turned me away from reading books purely on the basis of like a really rollicking story.

no one has any opinions on dennis cooper then? i searched him on here and the only things that came up were comments like "pretentious shit" so maybe i'll give him a miss.

talking about the musicality of FSF's language, i would say that nabokov is just as musical, if not more so, and i reckon lolita or pale fire would make it into my top ten (if i could compile a top ten)
 
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petergunn

plywood violin
CoD - gotta agree with Rich here. Found it really episodic, bit like a sitcom that didn't go anywhere. Basic set-up, and much of the detail very funny, but I don't think i even finished it. It was the favourite book of the bloke who lent it me - i failed to finish and then lost it. He still goes on about it.

Currently reading Master & Margarita by Bulgakov, which is extraordinary, though very oddly translated. surprised his name came up blank on the dissensus search engine.

i don't know... it's hard to include comedy on a "GREAT BOOKS OF ALL TIME" list, but i feel there is something about CoD that transcends... it's not just one dimensional slapstick...

Master and Margarita, i liked alot at the begining, but then i got bogged down... i think i liked Heart of a Dog better, more straightforward...
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
talking about the musicality of FSF's language, i would say that nabokov is just as musical, if not more so, and i reckon lolita or pale fire would make it into my top ten (if i could compile a top ten)

I read Lolita and it was good, but FSF's advantage over Nabokov is that Lolita could have been a third shorter and been just as good.

EDIT: No pedo

i don't know... it's hard to include comedy on a "GREAT BOOKS OF ALL TIME" list, but i feel there is something about CoD that transcends... it's not just one dimensional slapstick...

This isn't a Greatest Books Of All Time list! Thank christ for that, too.
 
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crackerjack

Well-known member
i don't know... it's hard to include comedy on a "GREAT BOOKS OF ALL TIME" list, but i feel there is something about CoD that transcends... it's not just one dimensional slapstick...

I agree, I'd never call it that. But I also think it's overlong and doesn't develop like it should. Maybe if it had found a publisher at the time and had a proper edit/rewrite...:slanted:
 

slim jenkins

El Hombre Invisible
Capote, I believe. I've never read either, but that's a great quote ("that's not writing, it's typing")


Yeah it's such a quotable quote but I can't stand the thinking behind it...as if there's only one 'proper' way to write...so damn conservative, the kind of conservatism that would deny the value of Henry Miller, Joyce, Burroughs (of course)...Celine? I don't know who Capote rated and don't care much but that 'not writing' line smacks of the idea that 'proper' writing only consists of someone using...what? a quill? pondering over every line and managing two pages a day of 'perfect' prose that's concise and crafted to the point where every word is prescious and meaningful?

People compare Kerouac to his beloved bop and at best a Charlie Parker solo but he's more like late Coltrane when he couldn't take the horn out of his mouth and blew and blew on but the thing about prose of course is that you can sample bits whereas with music that renders the whole 'journey' meaningless.

The greatest joke in literature and on the bourgeoise rule-makers must surely be Naked Lunch, assembled as it was sent to the printers...random...messy typed sheets...love it.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
Elias Canetti, Crowds and Power

I tried reading this several times, and failed, and then gave it someone. I'd like to try and again at some point - Canetti considered this book his main life's work. I really also like his aphorisms.

Hey you picked a film! So there. Besides you can't read just one book of Freud's and then be like, ok I understand Freud.

There was an interesting polemic against Freud by Theodore Dalrymple a while ago, in a very hostile review of a book about him.
Mr. Makari's conclusion, that, out of all the sordid maneuverings he chronicles in such detail, there nevertheless emerged "the richest systematic description of inner experience that the Western world has produced," is nonsense. Its very systematization is an impoverishment, not an enrichment, as anyone who has listened to psychoanalysts discuss anything will know. In such discussions, theory trumps description every time. Shakespeare is infinitely richer.

VIA

I don't endorse this, but I think it's an interesting line of attack.
 

josef k.

Dangerous Mystagogue
The greatest joke in literature and on the bourgeoise rule-makers must surely be Naked Lunch, assembled as it was sent to the printers...random...messy typed sheets...love it.

I think my favourite Burroughs book is probably Queer - I really like it's half-finished, anticipative quality, and there is a lot of doom in there, which I like. I've never read the late Western Lands trilogy, and I'd like to do that at some point.

I don't really remember the last time I read a whole book from cover to cover.
 

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
There was an interesting polemic against Freud by Theodore Dalrymple a while ago, in a very hostile review of a book about him.

I am inherently suspicious of psychiatrists, esp. viciously Tory psychiatrists who write under pseudonyms.

I think my favourite Burroughs book is probably Queer - I really like it's half-finished, anticipative quality, and there is a lot of doom in there, which I like. I've never read the late Western Lands trilogy, and I'd like to do that at some point.

I read Cities of the Red Night & that was all I could take. ironically it seems that he wound up writing the same book over & over again (tho that might actually be a compliment & anyway it's a good book) - gay teenagers, secret police, ectoplasms, viruses, smack, cowboys, etc. also the whole gay boys pirate utopia thing was a bit too Peter Lambon Wilson for me.

tho Burroughs is just lovely for totally off the wall/cut thru the BS aphorisms. and there's that bit at the beginning of Naked Lunch (I think) - where they drive & drive, just have to keep moving, keep going forward, to stave off the Fear - incredibly loose paraphrasing but it's like a personal manifesto.

I never read books cover-to-cover either.
 

STN

sou'wester
some novels:

Riddley Walker / Wolf Solent / Les Enfants Terrible / Things Fall Apart / Our Lady of the Flowers / Daniel Deronda / Ice (by Anna Kavan) / Silence (by Shusaku Endo) / Nana.

I just didn't get Cities of the Red Night, it seemed grating and ridiculous. I thought it was a terrific idea, abysmally executed. I do love Naked Lunch though.
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
some novels:

Riddley Walker / Wolf Solent / Les Enfants Terrible / Things Fall Apart / Our Lady of the Flowers / Daniel Deronda / Ice (by Anna Kavan) / Silence (by Shusaku Endo) / Nana.

I just didn't get Cities of the Red Night, it seemed grating and ridiculous. I thought it was a terrific idea, abysmally executed. I do love Naked Lunch though.

lovely list.

speaking of Achebe, i am excited to start A Man of the People soon.

anyone read it?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
Bear in mind that however good the translator, there is bound to be something that is lost (and perhaps other things unintentionally gained) in translation. Especially, I'd have thought, in translation from a language as alien as Japanese.

Murakami translated Gatsby into Japanese. It's interesting how on the book threads we come back to Murakami - I think I said before that my problem with him is that he appears to be saying more than he is, he seems to gesture towards depth without really arriving there. I, too, enjoy his prose style but, like reading Auster, I feel like he never gets very far. I suppose that's why I do like DFW because, it seems to me, he really does something with all the po-mo narrative tricks.of very dull writers who just couldn't pull this kind if thing off but that's not his fault!

On the point about style and translation, I just remembered something I read about Murakami recently, which is that in some (and perhaps all) of his books he uses a different writing system to write characters' names from the one usually used in Japanese. This must produce an effect that is formally untranslatable into a language like English that uses only a single writing system, no matter how competent the translator. I guess the closest you could probably get would be to write characters' names without capitalising the initials, but I doubt this would have an effect very similar to the original.
 
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