Saul Bellow

[rewch]

Passed away yesterday. RIP

very sad... still a six pager in new york times is good work

 

[dominic]

just read the obituary -- now starting to investigate other stuff that ny times has on-line about bellow -- looks like it's definitely worth checking out, i.e., contemporaenous reviews of all his major works in ny times, plus interviews w/ bellow from different periods in his life, etc

so people should click on the ny times link posted upthread

 

[dominic]

a particularly good read is this ny times magazine article which treats the ravelstein episode --

http://www.nytimes.com/library/magazine/home/20000416mag-ravelstein.html

again, looks like ny times has made available on the internet everything they ever published pertaining to saul bellow -- investigate now while it's free of charge

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/books/author-bellow.html

 

[craner]

RIP

I'm half way through Augie: taking it slowly, lingering over every page, with relish and delight. So far it's brought me to tears, made me laugh out loud on a bus (twice), and made me feel queasy, and more besides. It smashes Gatsby word-for-word. I'm like oh my God. How can one put so much energy and life into every page of a 600-page novel? More than marvellous, I'd say.

 

[luka]

i'm glad you're enjoying it oliver you nutcase. he'll never be one of my favourites
(this, from the nyt obit. is part of the reason why
He admired and befriended the Chicago machers - the deal-makers and real-estate men - and he dressed like one of them, in bespoke suits, Turnbull & Asser shirts and a Borsalino hat.
he was once quoted as asking, "Who is the Tolstoy of the Zulus? The Proust of the Papuans?" )

but i've enjoyed what i've read. they're quite fun. can't be upset about him dying really cos he was extremely old.

 

[craner]

I thought I'd admit my feelings on the matter. Ah - Augie! I just got to the bit where he shags Thea on her hotel room floor after having fled trade union thugs.

 

[jenks]

love thea and that great big bird, when first introduced it felt like it was the shoehorning of abig ugly symbol into the story (which it is ) but bellow invests that bird and augie's relationship to it with great power that you can forgive the heaviness with which it is introduced
having had time to think more about the book in the last couple of weeks i find that the picaresque nature of the book has left some episodes firmly emblazoned in my memory - surely the sign of a successful work of art. it feels very different from heartbreak and herzog. this has a zest for life that the world weariness of the other two as if there is something indominatable about augie for all of his buffeting by fate ( or bellow)

- as for the gatsby cf well whoever yoked them together? it's not either/or but both isn't it?

 

[dominic]

He admired and befriended the Chicago machers - the deal-makers and real-estate men - and he dressed like one of them, in bespoke suits, Turnbull & Asser shirts and a Borsalino hat.

which doesn't mean that he didn't disagree w/ their fundamental mode of existence

rather you have to envision kids taking different routes out of the ghetto -- i.e., bellow came from same jewish ghettos as the machers -- i.e., not until mid-century did jews become the "most successful ethnic group in america" -- up until then they lived very hard lives in the urban ghettos, just like the italians -- that's why all the gangsters were italians and jews (at least in big cities, save for the odd irish gang) -- it wasn't until the migration of blacks northward w/ the two world wars, and then the subsequent opening of american immigration policy to people from places other than europe, that jews & italians became "white" and "middle class" and moved to the suburbs

and bellow was born 1915 -- so he's 45 in 1960, which is roughly when jews & italians become middle class -- granted jewish experience is more differentiated in american history than italian experience -- but jews from russia were late arrivals compared w/ other jewish groups

so of course he admired the machers -- these were hustlers who had made it big

really i don't think his admiration of them all that different than had he admired the likes of meyer lansky

men w/ style, men w/ amibition, men w/ courage and balls, men w/ street smarts

and it's not admiration pure and simple

w/ bellow it's always admiration w/ shades of contempt and revulsion -- cf. his "admiration" of bloom

and are you seriously saying that bespoke suits, Turnbull & Asser shirts and a Borsalino hat are not the height of style for a man of bellow's age?

i think he had a good look

 

[dominic]

perhaps i should give "augie march" another try

don't think i made it more than 20 pages last time -- 'twas many years ago -- but i have a copy of the book somewhere -- need only to find and read

i have a bias for "tighter" works of fiction -- which is why i've endorsed "the victim," "seize the day," "mr sammler's planet"

though yeah it does seem likely that bellow is at his most original in the sprawling, more imaginative works -- not that i particularly value the notion of orignal voice (or rather, yes & no)

 

[jenks]

yep, i'd go with much of what dominic is saying. his description of bellow and his early years reminded me of mordecai richler's description of jewish life in pre WWII toronto in solomon gursky was here, a very bellow book. also i think roth covers some of this ground too in communist, haven't got round to his latest but as that is set just before and during WWII in newark.
what to make of the proust of the papuans remark though? i think luka is right to bring it up - it can't negate the work but is discomforting nonetheless to my liberal way of thinking

 

[dominic]

what to make of the proust of the papuans remark though? i think luka is right to bring it up - it can't negate the work but is discomforting nonetheless to my liberal way of thinking

i don't really know the details -- other than that he did say it -- but in the ny times materials he says that the quote was taken out of context, or based on a misunderstanding, or whatever

standard view of bellow is that he drifted to the cultural right

yet he was contemptuous of politicos of all kinds, of "movement" people of all kinds -- whether on the left or right

that's why he left new york -- b/c it had become too political -- i.e., seems not have been very fond of lionel trilling's students -- many of whom became neo-cons -- i.e., he says all of this in the interviews that ny times has posted

don't know too much more than that -- except also that he was clearly sympathetic to bloom's position -- taught courses w/ bloom on rousseau, flaubert, etc -- didn't take french literary theory too seriously, etc

 

[craner]

Dominic, you're a fount of info, and you should really give Augie another go...100 pages in it goes wooooooOOOOOSSSHHHHH!

 

[dominic]

Dominic, you're a fount of info

lest this turn into a mutual admiration society and we all start to gag on the saccharine -- i'll just say that you impress me as knowing far more about most things than i do --

there's really only 3 or 4 things that interest me in this world and that i therefore know a thing or two about

plus i'm idle at the moment -- b/w temp jobs -- still trying to get real job -- so i actually did read yesterday everything on the ny times site pertaining to bellow (which is not all that much, just a series of short newspaper articles)

and after a search of my apartment, it appears that "augie march" must be in my parents' basement

 

[luka]

you don't need to read much bellow to realise he had a weird problem with black people

 

[dominic]

you don't need to spend much time in america to realize that most white americans have weird problems with black people, and vice versa

and there's also weird dynamics b/w jews and blacks in america -- i.e., lots of the civil rights fighters were jewish college kids --- and indeed even before wwii jewish marxists tried to forge solidarity with urban blacks -- but again, fears & resentments on all sides as jews prospered and became "white" after wwii and blacks remained "black" -- reverend jackson calling nyc hymie town -- the crown heights riots

also -- ralph ellison was a good friend of his -- and i don't think this was a case of his making an exception for the "exceptional negro"

but yeah the scene w/ the black guy in "mr sammler's planet" following sammler, intimidating sammler, exposing himself to sammler, but not hurting sammler -- pretty questionabe scene -- and yet the scene may also be said to reveal sammler's fears and anxieties effectively

so is it illegitimate for these tensions & anxieties to be reflected in bellow's writing?

i appreciate his honesty

and yet you're right luka -- there is something unsavory going on -- i.e., he and his social circle do seem to have thought of themselves as the last stalwarts of civilization surrounded by the black barbarian hordes of south chicago

and yet at least he didn't flee the city like so many other whites -- back in the 70s and 80s, before cities became fashionable again in america, the easiest way to keep a good conscience on race issues was to cocoon oneself in the lily white suburbs

so bellow had a complicated conscience -- and i think it's to his credit that his work reveals those complications

and remember bellow was 55 in 1970 -- so he must have felt very vulnerable in the urban terrain of the 70s and the 80s -- and certainly many from his circles felt threatened, i.e., physically, intellectually, culturally threatened -- but this is also the man who rode the subways -- again, i'm not sure if you appreciate the fear that american whites had of blacks in the 70s and 80s

was the fear irrational? yes

were middle-class whites the real oppressors? yes

and yet this fear was a reality -- and bellow the writer captured the reality

 

[cortempond]

BTW Martin Amis massively influ. by Bellow

Several years ago was at a book reading here in Chicago by Martin Amis -- just when London Fields came out. Happened by chance to be sitting next to Bellow's wife (#? who knows). Talked to her for a bit, she said Amis was staying with her and Bellow. All during the reading he talked about how Bellow influenced his writing. Massive lovefest.

Both Bloom and Bellow were here at U of C. Bloom created many of his proteges here, right-wing conservatives who worship him and Leo Strauss, also a U. of C. legend. Strauss created the ultra-conservative, right-wing government in control of the U.S. right now.

So I'm glad Bellow busted him with Ravelstein. Other than that Augie March, Herzog and Mr. Sammler's Planet are what I'll remember him for. He always said that Chicago was always his hometown and him and Algren were able to do it some justice.

 

[ripley]

Bellow and Bloom are also the reason the Social Thought program (or department) doesn't have a sexual harassmet policy. In the years when every school was beginning to have one, they resisted it, co-writing a letter of protest about the "removal of eros" from the classroom.

so, Dominic, I wouldn't be too sure about the professor-student thing.

 

[dominic]

Strauss created the ultra-conservative, right-wing government in control of the U.S. right now.

this is a ridiculous myth that is repeated over and over throughout the media -- mainstream and left media, but also the right media b/c the likes of kristol require the pedigree and revel in the glamour

first, people like cheney and rumsfeld are in no way connected to leo strauss

second, the most prominent person connected is wolfowitz -- and he by way of allan bloom, the most infamous but not the most serious or accomplished student of strauss

and yes, there are quite a few others in upper echelons of govt w/ some connection to strauss via some student of strauss -- but this of itself is not that curious b/c strauss was a highly regarded thinker whose best students got plum positions at leading u.s. universities (i.e., this is how academia works -- reward the student for his teacher's insights) -- and is it not everywhere the case that the students who go to the best schools get high positions in govt if they so choose and work hard -- certainly this is what harvard has always done, churning out the corporate and government elite year in and year out -- what is curious, however, is that in the 1970s many second-generation straussians began to network among themselves, their loyalty attached not to an institution (the harvard man helps the harvard man, the yale man the yale man), but to some ideological notion of "straussianism"

third, many others on the political right began to call themselves "straussians" or would cite strauss as a key influence on their thinking, despite never having been taught by strauss or by a student of strauss -- i.e., they simply appropriated strauss' name for their own purposes

(i don't claim to have strauss figured out -- not by a long shot -- and it's been several years since i last read one of his books -- but i seem to be more familiar w/ strauss than others here -- and as i noted upthread i address the subject of leo strauss over on the "power of nightmares" thread in the politics forum -- here's the link -- and here's more)

if you want an account of the differences b/w strauss, his various kinds of students and the so-called straussians -- or if you simply want the gossip (and the gossip is pretty damn juicy) -- then you should read anne norton's "leo strauss and the politics of american empire" -- here's the amazon.com link -- and here's an old-time american conservative's review of the norton book -- and here's a review by a student of bloom

yeah the book could have profited from tighter editing, lacks footnotes, etc -- and doesn't even attempt to get to the heart of leo strauss' thought -- but i think it makes some very well-needed points and the gossip is delicious (rather than buy the book, i simply read it at the union square barnes & noble -- too ashamed to buy the gossip but had to know the gossip!)

norton goes to some pains to separate the more austere and high-minded students of strauss -- people like joseph cropsey -- from the so-called straussians and the figure of allan bloom

i.e., norton makes clear that the best students of strauss (and their students) were dismissive of bloom and thought his "closing of the american mind" an embarrassment

this is why bloom was not made a professor in the political science department at chicago -- i.e., even in the late 70s -- when he left cornell for chicago -- but well before the publication of "the closing" -- bloom was regarded as a person who had neglected his talents and forsaken serious scholarship in favor of hedonism

of course this is all relative -- compared w/ other academics bloom's career was perfectly decent and respectable, i.e., in terms of the translations and articles he turned out -- but when viewed from the peaks of the hyde park world bloom was a sorry joke -- a once promising talent gone wrong

however, b/c of the success of "the closing," the prodigal son bloom was able to cast himself as strauss' advance agent -- his mouthpiece -- and certainly this is how bloom's students have portrayed bloom -- bloom "bonded" very tightly with many of his students, and they remain loyal to him to this day

wolfowitz was a student of bloom's at cornell -- and bloom then sent wolfowitz on to chicago for grad school -- but by this point, the late 60s, strauss was well past his intellectual prime, and wolfowitz only took one seminar w/ strauss anyway -- same is true of william kristol -- i.e., these people studied under bloom, not strauss

(though it's worth noting that not even bloom was a simple movement conservative a la kristol -- bloom seems, rather, to have exploited the movement for his own ends)

this is not to say that bloom was the only student of strauss w/ unsavory character traits and political zeal -- there's also people like harry jaffa and quite a few others

and then there's also the troubling issue of how some straussians apparently try to practice esoteric writing and speech -- norton gives the example of the prominent figure thomas pangle, who in his book on Abraham and Kierkegaard makes but one elliptical reference to Derrida's work on the subject -- but whatever the motives of these men, their motives have nothing in common with strauss' project b/c strauss sought to REVEAL how earlier philosophers wrote -- namely, that they wrote in such a way as to transmit wisdom to discerning readers while skirting such content from political authorities, i.e., esoteric writing served to promote, not subvert, enlightenment -- whereas all too many so-called straussians seem intent on using speech to skirt not the eyes of political authority but of the public -- and somebody like pangle, to again use norton's example, is utterly perverse in his failure to address derrida directly

but again -- since when is it permissible to judge a thinker based upon the actions of his most foolish and contemptible epigones?

to hold strauss responsible for the current u.s. govt is no different than holding nietzsche responsible for nazi germany (except that strauss worked w/in academic institutions and had real students)

to assess strauss properly you have to read peak-period strauss -- 1930s through 1950s

and to assess his legacy, you have to read his best students -- josephy cropsey, stanley rosen, seth bernadette and the like

is there a leo strauss influence on the current govt? -- yes -- but it's very indirect and not a work of nefarious design -- as though strauss were somehow the evil master pulling the strings -- it's much more the story of politically ambitious students using strauss' name as badge of honor and perhaps one or two of his ideas, subtracted from the rest of his thought, for ideological charge

 

[cortempond]

Very Interesting Re: Strauss

Dominic:

Thank you for your thoughts and perspectives on Strauss. Six degrees of separation, as it seems. I plan on checking some of those writers you mentioned. What is your background, as your depth of knowledge is quite fascinating. It is quite refeshing to have the viewpoint of the foundations of current Conservative (or Neo-), thought, as well as finding sources to consult.

Seems like this is a perfect subject for a thread.

Thanks again,

Cortempond.

 

[dominic]

errr, no, i don't actually know that much

except that i have read several books by strauss, rosen, cropsey

and my background and qualifications are none too impressive, i.e., never got a master's or a phd

i pretty much said my piece over on the "power of nightmares" thread

and i got the gossip through the anne norton book (plus perhaps the odd remark by past professors that stayed with me somehow)