humour: media / politics

borderpolice

Well-known member
This is something I often wonder about, has there ever been a proper rigorous study of Badiou's maths by a mathematician? If so what did they say and if not why not?
There is a definite attempt to blind with science that I notice in a lot of theorists but you couldn't really get away with that in the same way in maths. If he could "pass" that maths test that would surely give the unbelievers some pause for thought although if he failed it would be vindication of a sort for Dawkins et al no?

The maths he refers to is right. That is quite rare for a philosopher, and the reason I read him. His uses of mathematics are not mathematical but philosphical, hence it is not really appropriate to ask for his work to be checked by mathematicians. In some sense he uses a mathmatical language to speak about things like names, state, democracy and so on, but this mathematical language is in effect only metaphorical. he never succeeds in pinning down social concepts in the language of ZFC, which is what he seem to want to do. His books about ethics and universalism are very very disappointing because i think one can successfully rewrite conventional ethics (like the categorical imperative) in a fairly mathematical language, and that would lead to interesting mathematical, logical and ethical work. But he never does this. He also never solves the foundational problems that the he hope the axiomatic approach can circumvent.
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
Cable news (probably taking a cue from talk radio as usual) was in overdrive this weekend turning unjustified and excessive police force into a cause for snickering -- "Don't tase me bro" the just comeuppance of snotty college liberal/attention whore/impolite young man/whatever brand of character assassination appeals to your own biases and insecurities. I felt sick to my stomach watching people sit patiently while they electrocuted this guy, and never had I felt worse about voting for Kerry in 2004 (and I felt HORRIBLE about that). And then I see it replayed endlessly as an easy joke for the smarmy never-will-be's of weekend cable news, running the video repeatedly from different camera angles like someone with OCD washing their hands of the dirt that will never come off.
 
I actually think there is room to be radical AND work for a bank (indeed the genuinely retro-grade step would be to do something as utterly corrupt as work for a charity of course).

[evil grin] Like God working for the Devil?

All universities are charities ... :cool:

[when I meet a banker that matches your specification, you'll be the first to hear the good news, gek; countless former 'radicals' who entered financial services to revolutionize the world are now - predictably - ego-maniacal, cynical and reactionary neo-libs. Moles always succumb to the virus, if they ever really were moles to begin with]

I suspect tho this is my own sidewards take on the thing (ie- how else to gain the necessary knowledge of the hard edge of capitalism- not in books alone surely... and if the total value of virtual capital / derivatives etc is 40 times the value of the entire real output of the world economy then this seems like an area which too few radical-leaners investigate-- rather than approaching it as something to either give in utterly to ("Selling out") or attempt to "fix" into some kind of benevolent capitalism (ie- "subversion"), to rather understand the nightmarish new landscape and utilise the knowledge to later engage in a far more perverse project).

But is there really any secretive, all-knowing Inner Sanctum of finance capitalism accessible only to a select elite (an Other of the Big Other)? Nothing happens within this imagined sanctum; though you're absolutely right about the Left's general ignorance about the intricacies of high finance (unlike Marx, who practically invented such macro-empirical critical analyses).

Check this:

According to Satyajit Das, a respected authority on derivatives trading, “A single dollar of "real" capital supports $20 to $30 of loans. This spiral of borrowing on an increasingly thin base of real assets, writ large and in nearly infinite variety, ultimately created a world in which derivatives outstanding earlier this year stood at $485 trillion -- or eight times total global gross domestic product of $60 trillion.” (Are We Headed for an Epic Bear Market” Jon Markman)

From The Era of Global Financial Instability, By Mike Whitney, 09/20/07 "ICH" -- -- Wall Street loves cheap money. That’s why traders were celebrating on Tuesday when Fed chief Ben Bernanke announced that he’d drop interest rates from 5.25% to 4.75% ...

And now even economist Klugman, five years late, 'predicts' a dollar crash.
 
nomadologist said:
since I've read K-punks blog posts about this alleged anti-intellectual pose amongst some of the most highly educated people in the world

Do you mean those who fancifully imagine themselves "the most highly educated people in the world"? And their actual existential anti-intellectual pose:

All of UK culture tends to the condition of the clip show, in which talking heads – including, of course, Morley - are paid to say what dimwit posh producers have decided that the audience already thinks over footage of what everyone has already seen. I recently had dealings with an apparatchik of Very Old Media. What you get from representatives of VOM is always the same litany of requirements: writing must be ‘light’, ‘upbeat’ and ‘irreverent’. This last word is perhaps the key one, since it indicates that the sustaining fantasy to which the young agents of Very Old Media are subject is exactly the same as the one in which popists indulge: that they are refusing to show ‘reverence’ to some stuffy censorious big Other. But where, in the dreary-bright, dressed-down sarky snarky arcades of postmodern culture, is this ‘reverence’? What is the postmodern big Other if it is not this ‘irreverence’ itself? (Only people who have not been in a university humanities dept for a quarter-of-century – i.e. not at all your bogstandard Oxbridge grad Meeja employee/ leisure-time popist – could really believe that there is some ruthlessly-policed high culture canon. When Harold Bloom wrote The Western Canon it was as a challenge to the relativism that is hegemonically dominant in English Studies.) I’ve quickly learned that ‘light’, ‘upbeat’ and ‘irreverent’ are all codes for ‘thoughtless’ and ‘mundanist’. Confronted with these values and their representatives – who, as you would expect, are much posher than me - I often encounter a cognitive dissonance, or rather a dissonance between affect and cognition. Faced with the Thick Posh People who staff so much of the media, I feel inferiority – their accents and even their names are enough to induce such feelings – but think that they must be wrong. It is this kind of dissonance that can produce serious mental illness; or – if the conditions are right – rage.

Anti-intellectualism is a ruling class reflex, whereby ruling class stupidity is attributed to the masses (I think we’ve discussed here before the ruse of the Thick Posh Person whereby make a show of pretending to be thick in order to conceal that they are, in fact, thick.) It’s scarcely surprising that inherited privilege tends to produce stupidity, since, if you do not need intelligence, why would you take the trouble to acquire it? Media dumbing down is the most banal kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

As Simon Frith and Jon Savage long ago noted in their NLR essay, ‘The Intellectuals and the Mass Media’, which Owen recently brought to my attention again, the plain common-man pose of the typical public school and Oxbridge-educated media commentator) trades on the assumption that these commentators are far more in touch with ‘reality’ than anyone involved in Theory. The implicit opposition is between Media (as transparent window-on-the-world transmitter of good, solid commonsense) and Education (as out-of-touch disseminator of useless, elitist arcanery). Once, Media was a contested ground, in which the impulse to educate was in tension with the injunction to entertain. Now – and the indispensable Lawrence Miles is incisive on this, as on so many other things, in his latest compendium of insights – Old Media is almost totally given over to a vapid notion of Entertainment – and so, increasingly, is education.

In my teenage years, I certainly benefited far more from reading Morley and Penman and their progeny than from the middlebrow dreariness of much of my formal education. It’s because of them, and later Simon and Kodwo et al, that I became interested in Theory and bothered to pursue it in postgraduate study. It is essential to note that Morley and Penman were not just an ‘application’ of High Theory to Low Culture; the hierarchical structure was scrambled, not just inverted, and the use of Theory in this context was as much a challenge to the middle class assumptions of Continental Philosophy as it was to the anti-theoretical empiricism of mainstream British popular culture. But now that teaching is itself being pressed into becoming a service industry (delivering measurable outputs in the form of exam results) and teachers are required to be both child minders and entertainers, those working in the education system who still want to induce students into the complicated enjoyments that can be derived from going beyond the pleasure principle, from encountering something difficult, something that runs counter to one’s received assumptions, find themselves in an embattled minority. Here we are now entertain us.

The credos of ruling class anti-intellectualism that most Old Media professionals are forced to internalise are fare more effective than the Stasi ever was in generating a popular culture that is unprecedently monotonous . Put it this way: a situation in which Lawrence Miles languishes, at the limits of mental health, barely able to leave his house, while the likes of Rod Liddle swagger around the mediascape is not only aesthetically abhorrent, it is fundamentally unjust. Contrary to the ‘it’s only hedonic stim’ deflationary move that both Stekelmanites and Popists share, popular culture remains immensely important, even if it only serves an essential ideological function as the background noise of a capitalist realism which naturalises environmental depredation, mental health plague and sclerotic social conditions in which mobility between classes is lessening towards zero.

A class war is being waged, but only one side is fighting.

Choose your side. Choose your weapons.

And

The once-challenging claim that for certain listeners, the (likes of) Backstreet Boys could have been as potent as (the likes of) Nirvana has been passive-nihilistically reversed – now, the message disseminated by the wider culture - if not necessarily by the popists themselves - is that nothing was ever better than the Backstreet Boys. The old high culture disdain for pop cultural objects is retained; what is destroyed is the notion that there is anything more valuable than those objects. If pop is no more than a question of hedonic stim, then so are Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky. Reading Milton, or listening to Joy Division, have been re-branded as just another consumer choice, of no more significance than which brand of sweets you happen to like. Part of the reason that I find the term ‘Popism’ unhelpful now is that implies some connection between what I would prefer to call Deflationary Hedonic Relativism and what Morley and Penman were doing in the early 80s. But their project was the exact inverse of this: their claim was that, as much sophistication, intelligence and affect could be found in the Pop song as anywhere else. Importantly, the music, and the popular culture of the time, made the argument for them. The evaluation was not some fits-all-eras a priori position, but an intervention at a particular time designed to have certain effects. Morley and Penman were still critics, who expected to influence production, not consumer guides marking commodities out of five stars, or executives spending their spare time ranking every song with the word ‘sugar’ in it on live journal communities that are the cyberspace equivalent of public school dorms.​

And now we return you to some Humour.
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
[evil grin] Like God working for the Devil?

All universities are charities ... :cool:

[when I meet a banker that matches your specification, you'll be the first to hear the good news, gek; countless former 'radicals' who entered financial services to revolutionize the world are now - predictably - ego-maniacal, cynical and reactionary neo-libs. Moles always succumb to the virus, if they ever really were moles to begin with]

That's why a different position is necessary- one that doesn't seek to make good capitalism, to use the profits of hedge funds and such-like to set up charitable foundations, or to make only ethical investments, but to accelerate the very worst aspects of high finance itself... the perfect banker would be precisely an utterly heartless cynical beyond belief (beyond cynicism itself in fact) ego maniac, not necessarily a reactionary but definitely more neo-con than neo-con: rather than merely turning a blind eye to negative externalities, or seeing them in a profit-justifies-the-means sense, these would be the entire purpose of the operation. No virus to succumb to, they themselves would be the corrupting influence...
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
*I guess you mean theorems rather than theories as a theory is unproven and is thus by definition far from watertight.

As a scientist I ought to slap you for that, Rich. "Evolution is, after all, only a theory..." - any and every God-bothering hick. ;)
 
Cable news (probably taking a cue from talk radio as usual) was in overdrive this weekend turning unjustified and excessive police force into a cause for snickering -- "Don't tase me bro" the just comeuppance of snotty college liberal/attention whore/impolite young man/whatever brand of character assassination appeals to your own biases and insecurities. I felt sick to my stomach watching people sit patiently while they electrocuted this guy, and never had I felt worse about voting for Kerry in 2004 (and I felt HORRIBLE about that). And then I see it replayed endlessly as an easy joke for the smarmy never-will-be's of weekend cable news, running the video repeatedly from different camera angles like someone with OCD washing their hands of the dirt that will never come off.

The police reports make for wonderful works of extravagent fiction too. Never trust a pig, etc.
 
That's why a different position is necessary- one that doesn't seek to make good capitalism, to use the profits of hedge funds and such-like to set up charitable foundations, or to make only ethical investments, but to accelerate the very worst aspects of high finance itself... the perfect banker would be precisely an utterly heartless cynical beyond belief (beyond cynicism itself in fact) ego maniac, not necessarily a reactionary but definitely more neo-con than neo-con: rather than merely turning a blind eye to negative externalities, or seeing them in a profit-justifies-the-means sense, these would be the entire purpose of the operation. No virus to succumb to, they themselves would be the corrupting influence...

Firstly, there's no shortage of such seemingly psychotic capitalists modelling themselves after the archytypal hyper-cynical Gordon Gekko, and any so-called 'charitable' contributions they make are also purely for profit: not simply made for tax breaks, but for expanding their market power through branding etc (like endowing MBA programs for purposes of expanding the network by churning out yet more Gekko's). It's just that even they have some underlying fetish (like new-ageism) that saves them from both full immersion in such madness and from full-blown psychosis (wasn't Gekko's saviour his pet dog, or some such? Or was that Donald Trump? No matter: there're all exchangeable clones anyway).

Secondly, when you say that "they themselves would be the corrupting influence", surely you mean that they have already been absolutely infected by viral capitalism and are now its cheer-leading Agents? Capitalism, as an abstract structure, is always corrupting; nobody living under it, surviving under it, ever escapes this entirely.

Thirdly, what is the expected outcome of this?

So I'm actually wondering if such a 'pure' obsessive capitalist (with a total super-egoic injunction to Enjoy, and Only Enjoy, the form of capitalism you outline) actually exists or could ever exist - without eventually either regressing into full-blown psychosis or retreating from the world (as commonly happens such obsessives - computer hackers, for instance)?
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
I still like the idea of schizo Chinese kamikaze i-banker gambling addicts unleashed on world markets... Not in a workable sense, but more as a kind of sci-fi scenario.
 

noel emits

a wonderful wooden reason
If you would all like to entrust me with your money I will undertake to invest it as recklessly as I can manage.

Join my doomsday cult, let's end this thing!
 

Gavin

booty bass intellectual
There should be some sort of Dissensus Financial Planning... only for the destruction of capitalism of course -- our (hopefully) enormous profits will just be a side-effect of our revolutionary strategy, one that will incorporate my move to a lush condo filled with rare books and records... and pay Woebot's bandwidth bills indefinitely of course.
 
There should be some sort of Dissensus Financial Planning... only for the destruction of capitalism of course -- our (hopefully) enormous profits will just be a side-effect of our revolutionary strategy, one that will incorporate my move to a lush condo filled with rare books and records... and pay Woebot's bandwidth bills indefinitely of course.

Alas, that's not permitted in ever-expanding capitalist utopia, where maximization of risk is mandatory without conveniently accidental pockets of nostalgic safety or guaranteed annuities (what, you some kind of statist commie?) being allowed to undermine your endless enjoyment, all such incomes and pensions and antiquarian treats now being wholly 'contribution-defined' rather than welfare-parasite 'benefit-defined.' It is your Duty to Enjoy risking everything All The Time, and to All The Time Enjoy your Duty.

By coincidence, I caught this snippit of a Zizek interview on the related subject of the fate of the obsessive-neurotic computer hacker: "In Zizek's view we short-circuit the emotional at our peril. Problems arise not only when desires are denied expression, but, above all, when they are too easily attained. Most of us fantasise about doing a job we enjoy for a living instead of the daily drudge. But Zizek reminds us to be careful what we wish for, because it just might come true: "If anyone embodies the potential catch-22 in the future of work, it is the young hackers employed by companies like Microsoft. It's like a distorted realisation of Marx's dream of disalienation. Here one no longer faces the split between one's job and one's own private pleasures. The hired hacker is paid to indulge
his 'individuality'. The employer's demand is no longer 'Behave properly, wear grey suits' etc - it's 'Be as idiosyncratic as you can, indulge in our crazy ideas - you will lose your job if you don't.' You are paid not to slave away at a job you hate but, on the contrary, to enjoy yourself. Yet the pressure is much worse
."

"I spoke with a psychiatrist whose main customers are Microsoft people and she told me that they can take it for a couple of years then the job gets so suffocating they disappear. They move a little bit East, you know, towards those horrible states like Montana and Idaho and then become - how do you call them? - survivalists, extreme right-wing gangsters. They simply want to escape! They cannot stand it!"

Whatever becomes of the SF "schizo Chinese kamikaze i-banker gambling addicts" following their passage across the Suffocation Threshold? They join Tony Montana in Chinatown, Idaho?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
... the perfect banker would be precisely an utterly heartless cynical beyond belief (beyond cynicism itself in fact) ego maniac, not necessarily a reactionary but definitely more neo-con than neo-con: rather than merely turning a blind eye to negative externalities, or seeing them in a profit-justifies-the-means sense, these would be the entire purpose of the operation.

You seem to be describing someone a bit like a cross between Mr. Burns and the dark lord Sauron: someone who would go out of his way to pollute a river or enslave crippled children merely for its own sake, even if it were actually cheaper not to. But why would anyone do such a thing, other than for the reason of simply being Evil in the sense of a fairy-story villain who hates everyone and everything?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"As a scientist I ought to slap you for that, Rich. "Evolution is, after all, only a theory..." - any and every God-bothering hick."
In maths a theorem is derived from generally agreed axioms and if you accept those axioms you have to accept the result. A theory is a conjecture for which a counter-example has not been found, even if it is something something like (the confusingly named due to his contention that he had a proof) "Fermat's last theorem" which had never been contradicted and was generally believed to be true, it could never be described as watertight in the sense that Gek-Opel was saying until that proof was found.
In science you don't have the same sort of proof, as you yourself have said, each theory is simply a way of describing the universe until a better one comes along. Some theories have more evidence for them than others and they exist towards the watertight end of a continuum that runs from disproved to watertight. The dishonesty in the "it's only a theory" position comes from suggesting that anything anywhere on that continuum has equal value when that is clearly not the case. I don't think anyone would say that it is a cast-iron copper-bottomed certainty that the theory of evolution is correct, just that it is by far the most likely explantion to such an extent that it is almost impossible to conceive that a better one could come along.

"Firstly, there's no shortage of such seemingly psychotic capitalists modelling themselves after the archytypal hyper-cynical Gordon Gekko"
Gordon Gek-Opel?
 

gek-opel

entered apprentice
In maths a theorem is derived from generally agreed axioms and if you accept those axioms you have to accept the result. A theory is a conjecture for which a counter-example has not been found, even if it is something something like (the confusingly named due to his contention that he had a proof) "Fermat's last theorem" which had never been contradicted and was generally believed to be true, it could never be described as watertight in the sense that Gek-Opel was saying until that proof was found.
In science you don't have the same sort of proof, as you yourself have said, each theory is simply a way of describing the universe until a better one comes along. Some theories have more evidence for them than others and they exist towards the watertight end of a continuum that runs from disproved to watertight. The dishonesty in the "it's only a theory" position comes from suggesting that anything anywhere on that continuum has equal value when that is clearly not the case. I don't think anyone would say that it is a cast-iron copper-bottomed certainty that the theory of evolution is correct, just that it is by far the most likely explantion to such an extent that it is almost impossible to conceive that a better one could come along.


Gordon Gek-Opel?

Yeah I definitely meant theorem- (ie: in this case axiomatic set theory). Although old Georg Cantor's Continuum Hypothesis would be a theory only amiright?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"Yeah I definitely meant theorem- (ie: in this case axiomatic set theory). Although old Georg Cantor's Continuum Hypothesis would be a theory only amiright?"
I was just rather touchily defending what I said from associations with unintelligent designers.
If I remember rightly (annoyingly I did very little set-theory in my degree) the continuum hypothesis is that the set of real numbers is (or is equivalent to) the smallest "uncountably" infinite set and as far as I know it's not been proved so I would say, yes it's a theory.
As you can tell, I'm not as sure as I should be.
 

borderpolice

Well-known member
If I remember rightly (annoyingly I did very little set-theory in my degree) the continuum hypothesis [... has] not been proved so I would say, yes it's a theory.
As you can tell, I'm not as sure as I should be.

Wrong. The CH is provably undecidable in ZFC. In other words, if ZFC is consistent at all (i.e. does not prove falsity), then both, ZFC + CH and ZFC + negation of CH are consistent. So you can take the CH or its negation as an additional axiom for set theory (or add an axiom that implies CH (like V=L) or its negation).
 

vimothy

yurp
I think that there is too much emphasis being placed on motivation here.

& @gek - one can't be a "reactionary neo-lib", it's a contradiction in terms.
 
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