"Mature ravers only"

[slim jenkins]

Will there come a point when a weekend is pipe and slippers and Jools Holland on the telly for you?

I think I've reached that point. But the weekend's buzz is more about 'hill walking' (as MMS put it) - because rambling is the new raving, didn't you know? OS maps are the thing to be seen carrying.

I have to pick up 'baboon' on the point about ceasing club activity as sign of not really being into the music in the first place, though. There just comes a time, and that time varies, when clubs are no longer appealing. Having kids is the obvious reason, also the fact that perhaps you're no longer out looking for members of the opposite sex (or same, if you swing that way). And to ramble, you can't go clubbing the same evening or have been clubbing the night before.

I really have been into (deep breath) Funk, Soul, Punk, Reggae, Jazz, Rare Groove, Jungle/D&B, Breakbeat and the associated clubs over the last 35 years. I'm now on the verge of retiring, as I did from DJing three years ago. I've danced hard to earn my rest from clubs.

On the age thing, over the last twenty years at least I've seen a real mixture, perhaps because a lot of these movements have direct links to 'classic' sounds from previous decades (whether as 'revivals' or direct descendants).

The other factor in lack of enthusiasm for new clubs sounds is that to ears as old as mine they're often not that new. Young ones for whom both the music and the experience are new keep the whole clubbing tradition going, of course.

 

[UFO over easy]

mixed with this was a whole heap of freshers, going to subdub/a reggae night for the first time. most of them absolutely fucked- kids at the bar unable to speak, and just vaguely pointing at their preferred beverage; a girl pushing through to get a drink as she was 'about to pass out' (ie. an e'd up mess at 12.00am); lads just wandering around dazed and mumbling; people passed out in the toilets; a (white) teenager attempting to speak in a grating faux-patois etc. really, really messy.

i won't be attending again until after the initial student rush to get mashed at the WI centre fades

matt just curious, has it always been like this? i was a fresher in leeds in 2004 and i could swear that the first few times i went to the west indian it was a totally different kind of place to what it became. seemed like the demographic changed very quickly, maybe different kinds of nights were being promoted? but then obviously i was one of those freshers, hopefully not quite that annoying but still.. my memory of first going there might be slightly tinted.

also the last couple of years of going to WI the way it seemed to me there may as well not have been an age restriction at all, loads of kids around who can't have been older than 14 or 15

i don't really think the vibe has suffered for all this though, it just seems different

 

[matt b]

when did i move up to leeds?
mmmm... 2003 and i'd been coming up every weekend for a year before that, so my first subdub would have been late 2002/early 2003.
this was the period when it really started to blow up from what i've gathered.

the first couple of times i went, i was amazed at how student centred it was (and how e-fuelled), but that was because reggae dances i went to in other parts of the country attracted an older crowd.

iration had managed to grab a whole new audience, mainly i guess because of the techno steppers they played. and consolidate


since then i'm generally really careful about when i go to subdub- live bands and roots soundsystems attract a slightly more diverse crowd- and where i stand in the dance.

i don't think subdub has changed a lot, but the WI centre has- more trance nights etc, and they must be doing well, because they've just extended the smoking area massively.

many of the youger participants clearly have no idea that it is a reggae dance.
for example, i saw one of my own students juggling (balls) when young warrior played which was highly disrespectful (and i told him so later), another couldn't understand that i drive to subdub and don't take ecstasy. did not compute.

my better half refuses to come now because of this sort of attitude (she'd say its always been like that).

friday felt like critical mass had been reached, with 100s of (very) young ravers fresh out in the outside world, often acting like they know it all.*

but that happens at this time every year.

i still enjoy it though, but could do without gurners waving every limb violently in a crowded space or people off their tits talking to me. about utter shite.


*this is overly negative, obv.

 

[vimothy]

for example, i saw one of my own students juggling (balls) when young warrior played which was highly disrespectful (and i told him so later)

?

 

[john eden]

?

Jugglers!

 

[matt b]

?

this may well be a sign of my age, but to my mind us 'outsiders' to reggae need to show some respect to the spiritual/ message elements of the music. To Rastas it is a church. Its a serious thing!

 

[sodiumnightlife]

I think young people such as myself (19) universally find the thought of old people going to clubs faintly embarrassing, but i'm not sure why. I guess i really don't mind what age people are at a dance so long as they are there for the music and are generally decent folk. I've had bad experiences in clubs with young shites and bad experiences in clubs with smart shoes and jeans 40 year olds twatted off ecstasy at 10pm.

 

[john eden]

this may well be a sign of my age, but to my mind us 'outsiders' to reggae need to show some respect to the spiritual/ message elements of the music. To Rastas it is a church. Its a serious thing!

Not only is it a church but it's a church predicated on black people coming together in celebration of their overcoming of slavery and countless other kinds of badness.

I'd be the last person in the world to say that white people shouldn't be able to be present at that sort of event, or that reggae dances have to be sombre miserable affairs.

But if you are trying to put out a message of black consciousness, dealing with the legacies of colonialism and trying to make the point that soundsystem culture itself is a product of black struggle, I don't think having a white teenager juggling is going to be a helpful contribution.

 

[vimothy]

Not my vibe, but

But if you are trying to put out a message of black consciousness, dealing with the legacies of colonialism and trying to make the point that soundsystem culture itself is a product of black struggle, I don't think having a white teenager juggling is going to be a helpful contribution.

No one likes juggling 'hippy' teenagers, least of all me, but I have to say I think you and matt are overreacting in a slightly mad way. And maybe I just went to the wrong kind of parties, but I associate juggling with reggae, trancified techno (Liberators et al) and crusty festivals. It's what people who listen to reggae like to do, or so I thought. And are 'white teenagers' really supposed to contribute? What happened to just turning up and dancing?

 

[john eden]

No one likes juggling 'hippy' teenagers, least of all me, but I have to say I think you and matt are overreacting in a slightly mad way. And maybe I just went to the wrong kind of parties, but I associate juggling with reggae, trancified techno (Liberators et al) and crusty festivals. It's what people who listen to reggae like to do, or so I thought. And are 'white teenagers' really supposed to contribute? What happened to just turning up and dancing?

Turning up and dancing is of course what one is supposed to do. But the roots dances of the Jah Shaka ilk me and Matt are talking about have a very respectful atmosphere - they are not "raves" or venues for getting shitfaced.

It's hard to explain without going to one. Perhaps this is what happens when you reach a critical mass of students or you hold events which resemble raves in some way, I don't know.

When I first started going to these sort of things you could tell as soon as you walked in that this was a completely different arena, that there were certain codes of behaviour at play - that for some people this was very meaningful, possibly central to their lives.

My response to this was to quietly soak it all in and try to work out where I fitted in - not to start juggling like it was another acid trance night because it is my god given right to do so.

But then I am quite serious, it's true. :slanted:

 

[Mr. Tea]

No one likes juggling 'hippy' teenagers, least of all me, but I have to say I think you and matt are overreacting in a slightly mad way. And maybe I just went to the wrong kind of parties, but I associate juggling with reggae, trancified techno (Liberators et al) and crusty festivals.

That's kind of weird, don't you think? In that trance is just about as 'white' as dance music gets, yet is associated with hippies/crusties who, let's face it, have a marked tendency to co-opt all things 'black', especially Jamaican/Rasta (red-gold-green clothes, 'dreads', a frankly tiresome infatuation with cannabis... ).

Anyway, let's not turn this into Race-And-Dance-Music Thread #265 (he says to himself).

 

[john eden]

Moving things along then - Shaka is a guy in his 50s (or 60s) playing records to people of all ages - he is helped in this cos it's reggae which (aside from being the best music in the world) is more easily enjoyed by the old and young than some other musics.

But how weird must it be for people like Judge Jules or Andy C who must be in their 40s now - playing to audiences of drugged up teenagers every night?

 

[zhao]

us 'outsiders' to reggae need to show some respect to the spiritual/ message elements of the music. To Rastas it is a church. Its a serious thing!

i agree but just to play contrarian... as a friend of mine said "just because they get high don't make rastafarianism any better than any other organized religion" (or what they've become i would add). i sometimes have to consciously separate some of the old testament judgemental holier-than-thou "spiritual message" from the music... i mean to tirelessly and tediously sing praise to a monarch in 2008 is pretty silly to me.

 

[vimothy]

Turning up and dancing is of course what one is supposed to do. But the roots dances of the Jah Shaka ilk me and Matt are talking about have a very respectful atmosphere - they are not "raves" or venues for getting shitfaced.

Of course -- that's the attitude I would love other people to have listening to my own music, but I wouldn't try to force people to do that, nor would I expect people to have that attitude towards my own favourite bits of music. And I thought matt was talking about Subdub at the West Indian Centre in Leeds, a night I've been to a fair few times, not some rasta church. My mate Dan did loads of nights with Mark Irration in Sheffield and, far from being 'spiritual' he always came across as a bit self-obssessed and used to turn the bass right down for everyone else's sets.

Maybe it's a sign of my age, but I tend to think it's no one's fucking business what I do in a club after I've paid to get in, whether it's dancing like an epileptic buzzard, drinking too much, not 'really listening' to the music or even juggling, which I have never wanted to do before now.

 

[matt b]

No one likes juggling 'hippy' teenagers, least of all me, but I have to say I think you and matt are overreacting in a slightly mad way. And maybe I just went to the wrong kind of parties, but I associate juggling with reggae, trancified techno (Liberators et al) and crusty festivals. It's what people who listen to reggae like to do, or so I thought. And are 'white teenagers' really supposed to contribute? What happened to just turning up and dancing?

I think you went to the wrong parties! Historically, reggae dances were one of the few spaces where black people could get together without it being mediated by the powers that be/ white people.

This continues today- there are only two big monthly reggae events in the country, smaller nights struggle with venues etc. Add to this john's comments above and I think it is important to be respectful.

When I started attending reggae dances, we just kept out the way! If you want to juggle/gurn, go to one of the many other clubbing opportunities.

On Friday, revolution was called for, capitalism was attacked, peace and love praised. How much of this was taken in by many is a moot point.

 

[vimothy]

Well, maybe I'm overreacting. I don't like reggae -- that's why I don't go watch stuff like this -- but I am sympathetic to that. However, it seems pretty obvious to me that if you want to hold a public event, publicise it, get lots of people to come to the event, then complaining that they're there or that they don't 'get it' is acting in bad faith somewhat.

 

[Mr. Tea]

On the subject of the age of clubbers, though, I was recently trying to talk a mate of mine (whom I'd guess is in his late '30s/early '40s) into coming along to the night my mates and I regularly go to - he was giving it the usual 'too old for clubbing' spiel, but if you go the right places (like this one) no-one gives a shit, you've got a good crowd of mostly 20s/30s, a few 18-year-olds and a few older bods as well, and everyone just has a great time. He wouldn't even be the oldest person there by a long way.

 

[droid]

but I associate juggling with reggae

Nah mate. Juggling goes with dancehall not reggae.

Have to say though, Ive been to plenty of reggae gigs in Germany, Italy, France, the UK and at home, and Ive never seen any jugglers.

 

[zhao]

i've been to a number of concerts this year where i'm the youngest one in the audience. and these experiences have been in general the most memorable and enjoyable.

 

[matt b]

I think young people such as myself (19) universally find the thought of old people going to clubs faintly embarrassing, but i'm not sure why.


Working with 16-19 year olds, I'd say that's normal- they (you ) seem to think life stops at 30 (at the latest). I haven't got to the bottom of why this is the case, but its probably linked to the determined hedonism/ no future attitude that increasingly prevails in society at large.