I agree.
Jeremy Corbyn
- Thread starter glasshand
- Start date
I agree.
lol. Try harder.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...party-fallout-ken-livingstone-suspension-live
Anyone with any sense (as Kriss points out) doesn't throw around glib comparisons between the nazis & israel, especially in the middle of an anti-semitism row but, it must be said, Livingstone is objectively, factually correct regarding zionist collaboration with Hitler.
Anyone with any sense (as Kriss points out) doesn't throw around glib comparisons between the nazis & israel, especially in the middle of an anti-semitism row but, it must be said, Livingstone is objectively, factually correct regarding zionist collaboration with Hitler.
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This is, i think, the fairest and most balanced thing Ive read on this shambles.
https://opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/multiple-truths-of-labour-antisemitism-story
https://opendemocracy.net/uk/adam-ramsay/multiple-truths-of-labour-antisemitism-story
I know I'm going to regret this, but...
I don't think the Labour Party has a problem with anti-Semitism generally, although the majority of activists I've met in meetings over the last 12 years have certainly been anti-Zionist and extremely hostile to Israel. I think the far-left, that is the former fringes of Labour and the Trot and Communist parties (excluding Workers Liberty) have a particular problem with navigating the porous border between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, notably when they have been professing solidarity with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah.
So.
The problem now is...the far left is effectively in control of the Labour opposition, and this ambiguity has infected mainstream Labour discourse. Has the right wing media inflated this issue out of proportion? Yes, obviously, of course. Does this mean it's not a real, and damaging, issue? Of course it doesn't.
The problem was settled for me years ago when I would attend (out of interest) anti-war rallies and see scores of left-wing activists lining up alongside serious Hezbollah partisans (with flags and everything!), happily chanting that merry ditty "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free!" Was that hard to unpack? Not really.
I guess you could be charitable and assume that the invariably non-Muslim SNP types were advocating a secular one-state solution, but the kind of militant groups they were content, in some cases eager, to make common cause with...well, they almost certainly were not. They wanted the keys back, and that meant expelling the Jews. It was not a peace rally. It was hard to see it as simply political anti-Zionism, and still is. It is, in fact, even harder now.
I'm sorry, there is a problem here.
I don't think the Labour Party has a problem with anti-Semitism generally, although the majority of activists I've met in meetings over the last 12 years have certainly been anti-Zionist and extremely hostile to Israel. I think the far-left, that is the former fringes of Labour and the Trot and Communist parties (excluding Workers Liberty) have a particular problem with navigating the porous border between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, notably when they have been professing solidarity with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah.
So.
The problem now is...the far left is effectively in control of the Labour opposition, and this ambiguity has infected mainstream Labour discourse. Has the right wing media inflated this issue out of proportion? Yes, obviously, of course. Does this mean it's not a real, and damaging, issue? Of course it doesn't.
The problem was settled for me years ago when I would attend (out of interest) anti-war rallies and see scores of left-wing activists lining up alongside serious Hezbollah partisans (with flags and everything!), happily chanting that merry ditty "From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free!" Was that hard to unpack? Not really.
I guess you could be charitable and assume that the invariably non-Muslim SNP types were advocating a secular one-state solution, but the kind of militant groups they were content, in some cases eager, to make common cause with...well, they almost certainly were not. They wanted the keys back, and that meant expelling the Jews. It was not a peace rally. It was hard to see it as simply political anti-Zionism, and still is. It is, in fact, even harder now.
I'm sorry, there is a problem here.
luka
Well-known member
Well of course you're right oliver no one will dispute that and you'll have no reason to regret it.
Anyone with a Facebook account will have spent part of today looking at some seriously hair raising 'memes' posted by supposedly anti-racism members of the hard left. It's unambiguous
Anyone with a Facebook account will have spent part of today looking at some seriously hair raising 'memes' posted by supposedly anti-racism members of the hard left. It's unambiguous
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Also, I will give Droid his due, I think he is probably the most militant anti-Isreali poster here, but I would hesitate to lump him in with that lot.
On the other hand, his staunch defence of Corbyn on this is problematic. It is precisely his leadership that has allowed these people to gain credence and a platform. As predicted last September. You can't expect Corbyn to come down hard on Livingstone, because he's a Livingstone ally, or more accurately, until recently, he was a pilot fish attached to the Livingstone shark.
On the other hand, his staunch defence of Corbyn on this is problematic. It is precisely his leadership that has allowed these people to gain credence and a platform. As predicted last September. You can't expect Corbyn to come down hard on Livingstone, because he's a Livingstone ally, or more accurately, until recently, he was a pilot fish attached to the Livingstone shark.
Dont take this is as an endorsement of your entire post, but Its funny you should mention that chant. I (as you can probably imagine) have been to loads of marches and protests and have heard it many times and I have occasionally raised similar concerns with organisers - not that I think it is necessarily an expression of an urge to drive all Israelis into the sea (I have never in person witnessed or heard anything approaching classical anti-semitism at a protest) - but rather a reflection of the legitimate national claims of Palestinians. That said, I am uncomfortable with the potential interpretations and cannot support the logical corollary of the sentiment.
Opposition to expulsion, ethnic cleansing and occupation must be universal.
Well... no one denies there is a problem on the fringes of anti-zionism - Gilad Atzmon etc., but it is also true that the most vociferous critics of the extremes are within the mainstream of the movement, which in general I think has far less of a problem than the right, or even the centre right.
There is also the point that they are justified in wanting the keys back, international law supports them, and it is impossible to make any moral or historical case for the legitimacy of the state of Israel and the expulsion and mistreatment of Palestinians - in fact the terms of engagement of the conflict, exclusive use of violence and force - explicitly established by Ben Gurion and others - could be seen to justify the sentiment.
But one thing I think your missing is the historical context of the slogan 'From the river to the sea' was the Biblical precept of Eretez Israel... (arguably) a Jewish empire from the Nile to the Euphrates, promulgated by Jabotinsky, Dayan, Begin... then adopted, with (In a far less ambitious manner it must be said) by Fatah and finally Hamas... so there is a lot going on behind those words.
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I honestly dont think thats true, the fact that most of the people involved predate his leadership is telling enough - but Im seeing this through the lens of (literally) decades of documented false anti-semitism smears on both sides of the Atlantic and beyond.
That open democracy link up thread seems very fair and is worth a read. Check it out
Benny Bunter
Well-known member
Never mind antisemitism. I went right off this guy when i read his views on prostitution