thirdform

Active member
he wasn't? how so? most people's conception of marxism is defintely teleological

sure but most peoples conception of marxism is a project for aspiring university politicos dissolving in the global solvent of technocratic management where old style donor networks are not required, better to focus on the anti-political dimensions of Marx's theory in the 21st century otherwise you get sucked into trying to justify corbyn's u-turn on socialist grounds, which of course you can't...
 

vimothy

yurp
if you are saying that the proletariat is a part of capitalist civilisation, then sure, you have no disagreement from me here
yes, I'm saying that communism cannot exist outside of civilisation. communism arose from particular currents within (european, capitalistic) civilisation
 

thirdform

Active member
if god is eternal then god exists outside of time
that's a tautology. the question is could god exist without humans? I'm not saying did humans create God. unless your faith is so predicated on extra-terrestrial beings so highly that your existence is irrelevant to salvation, then that is the thorny dilemma you have to deal with.
 

thirdform

Active member
yes, I'm saying that communism cannot exist outside of civilisation. communism arose from particular currents within (european, capitalistic) civilisation
sure but that's like saying 2+2 = 4.

the barbarian contention was in opposition to the highest point of Stalinist civilisation, so i think otherlife framing it as an ideal is a bit off, but at the same time I wouldn't say she is wrong.
 

thirdform

Active member
the sole real content of *civilisation* is the barbarians. civilisation generates a mass that is not of it yet can also not be integrated into it, although representatives will claim to do so.
 

thirdform

Active member
yes, I'm saying that communism cannot exist outside of civilisation. communism arose from particular currents within (european, capitalistic) civilisation
Does a European capitalistic civilisation exist anymore? Aren't the US, arab autocracies, the communist party led China etc etc all part of this global capitalist civilisation? Don't islam and confucianism have just as much to do with this civilisation in the 21st C?
 

vimothy

yurp
sure but most peoples conception of marxism is a project for aspiring university politicos dissolving in the global solvent of technocratic management where old style donor networks are not required, better to focus on the anti-political dimensions of Marx's theory in the 21st century otherwise you get sucked into trying to justify corbyn's u-turn on socialist grounds, which of course you can't...
the question is whether communism conforms to a "barbarian ideal" - disregarding social democracy as uninteresting, where does that leave us? still with a process which arises out out of the european civilisational current
 

vimothy

yurp
sure but that's like saying 2+2 = 4.

the barbarian contention was in opposition to the highest point of Stalinist civilisation, so i think otherlife framing it as an ideal is a bit off, but at the same time I wouldn't say she is wrong.
then talk of a "barbarian ideal" is absurd
 

thirdform

Active member
and even if we concede your point, then isn't democracy just as much a part of certain currents within european capitalist development? Do you want to claim that democracy is transversal whereas communism is not? if you don't, then you have to surrender to the arab autocrat who will say despotism is the government our people are used to. surely this bogus paradigm should be dropped as it's too concerned with the discursive and not enough with the immediate production of conditions of life?
 

thirdform

Active member
then talk of a "barbarian ideal" is absurd
I don't know where otherlife is coming from. I would say communists are barbarians but placing communism on the shaky ground of ideals is not something i would do, just like I would not impute any ideals to the bourgeois, be they conservative or socialist.
 

vimothy

yurp
the sole real content of *civilisation* is the barbarians. civilisation generates a mass that is not of it yet can also not be integrated into it, although representatives will claim to do so.
not the sole content - for example communism is a product of european civilisation (combining german idealism, french radicalism and british classical econ)
 

vimothy

yurp
Does a European capitalistic civilisation exist anymore? Aren't the US, arab autocracies, the communist party led China etc etc all part of this global capitalist civilisation? Don't islam and confucianism have just as much to do with this civilisation in the 21st C?
yes ofc but I'm characterising communism and its origins, which are not coextensive with 21st century civilisation or global capitalism
 

thirdform

Active member
not the sole content - for example communism is a product of european civilisation (combining german idealism, french radicalism and british classical econ)
ok tell me developed capitalism existed in the ottoman empire in the 19th century then because that's bollocks.
 

thirdform

Active member
the barbarian ideal in your life. communists are barbarians. civilisation presupposes a much longer history of high culture. it all goes in here... discuss.
it's about demolishing high culture. one cannot live as an abstract barbarian within civilisation.
it's about total uproot. We aren't barbarians only when we are forced to shoot the civilisers and break their gleaming teath.
 

thirdform

Active member
then its a false ideal

true ideals don't exist. otherwise they wouldn't be ideals.

In fact Trump is a good case study of this. his ideal is the game but he can't even answer what happens when he gets bored of the game. he even wonders if the game is worth playing. his economised conservative tradition has rationalised the capitalist aristocrat so highly that the aristo has no ideals apart from making good deals, in which case he doesn't become one to declare value but dissolve in the swamp of mediocrity conservatives sought to avoid. his only ideal is the deal. the deal, however, is not sublime. the sublime requires distance.
 
Last edited:

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
ok tell me developed capitalism existed in the ottoman empire in the 19th century then because that's bollocks.
Was the Ottoman empire important for the development of Marx's and Engel's ideas, though? I mean, maybe it was, news to me in that case.
 
Top