pattycakes_

Well-known member
I disagree. It's a position that could lead to talk about what could be done. It's a time to take action. Sitting and waiting is like blind faith.
 

luka

Well-known member
Staff member
It's not our place to create a youth movement. It IS our responsibility to build the compound. I agree with you on that point
 

thirdform

Well-known member
I think this outlook veers very close to an End Of History prognosis. Dissensus has an inexplicable fondness for diagnosing the End of History. People declaring the End Of History have a track record as dismal as that of people forecasting imminent apocalypse.
or melancholic reactionary authoritarianism (high conceptofascism.)

Since when has dance music ever not been monetised. free improv at least somewhat tried to break this circle, but that, like throbbing gristle got absorbed back into the performance art world. there has never really been anything anti-capitalist about dance music ever, and I'd argue that is its strength. It's also why I'm tired of the boiler room discussions. you're just witnessing accelerationism in action. there's really nothing all that hugely new. back in the day we could avoid the adverts or we ignored the adverts on pirate radios or we ignored the politics of artists because we had that luxury, now it's shoved crystal clear in our face. But that doesn't mean those mechanisms weren't there in the past, we just tried to sidestep them a bit or minimised them in our minds with rose tinted glasses. you look at something like UK garage before it went dark and boiler room is just an intensification of that, but just adapted to the 2010s student discourse.

How about we just ignore the economics for once as rudewhy was kind of alluding in the other thread. what if we danced so much as a collective, watched so much porn that we just got numb to it? We're probably all bored. We're not supposed to be idealists, we've been in the discourse for at least 15 years, all of us. It's not even about self-awareness really. it's a simple chemical thing. like mdma, opening up new tongues like the tibetan book of the dead or ulysses or finnegans wake or even qu'ran. But we speak the tongue now, the tongue doesn't speak to us. there are no wonder delights not because we don't want them, but because we know them. I wouldn't say that's mobile phones in clubs self-awareness at all.
 
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thirdform

Well-known member
So we have to wait for a generation that might do something, in a landscape where their very ability to imagine something different, have their own thoughts and dreams and even have an appetite for something different is being eroded by a tailor made, force fed media delivery system aka the internet, which we know is in no hurry to slow down. And in many ways is only just getting started. Idk man. Hard to see it happening anytime soon.
things are not that fascistically pessimistic, man. capitalism has always had mass cataclysmic breakdowns, if it is to survive or revolve, it will have to break down again. the signs are there. the problem though, is that the initial breakdown itself is not something that even musical cynics are mostly willing to accept because it erodes their privileges of being cynics, including leftist media creative ones. unless you're like nick land who is some transhuman mystic. or unless you believe that singeli is invalid because it's taking influence from western dance/rap music styles.
 
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thirdform

Well-known member
I disagree. It's a position that could lead to talk about what could be done. It's a time to take action. Sitting and waiting is like blind faith.
Faith by its nature is blind though. I mean, it couldn't be any other way. it would be rationality if it wasn't. this is why the surreal is important, which is what I try to get across with my love for more machine like techno. the unification of the dreaming and awake states.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
Apparently Fukuyama was wrong about liberal democracy being the end of history because of Trump etc, but we've seen right wing authoritarians before. Surely it's a step back rather than something new?
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Apparently Fukuyama was wrong about liberal democracy being the end of history because of Trump etc, but we've seen right wing authoritarians before. Surely it's a step back rather than something new?
I mean some people believe in that sort of unending progressive line of history, but I don't really know anyone who does. maybe in an academic, intellectual sense, but in the real world things are way more complex with history always being full of contradicting tendancies.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
Pynchon's conception of history is the most convincing I've come across, the huge, shape-shifting tangle of lines. It seems insane to think of it as this linear thing which goes from point a) to b) to c).
 

firefinga

New member
Apparently Fukuyama was wrong about liberal democracy being the end of history because of Trump etc, but we've seen right wing authoritarians before. Surely it's a step back rather than something new?
It was by no means Trump that proved Fukuyama wrong, it was the Chinese (and several other mostly Asian states) who didn't follow Fukuyama's idea that economically sucessful states/societies per se had to be liberal parlamentary democracies.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Pynchon's conception of history is the most convincing I've come across, the huge, shape-shifting tangle of lines. It seems insane to think of it as this linear thing which goes from point a) to b) to c).
yeah that's a very military way of looking at things. It works for geopolitics i guess. It doesn't really help with understanding changing attitudes, modes of living/production and migration patterns though.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
earthquake history is my prefered way of looking at things. fairly stable periods that then violently shake an explode and then reconstitute everything around them, for positive or negative, often both.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
because generally the contradictions can be unpacked whereas lines on a battlefield can't, it's the nature of prolonged conflict.

For instance, Trump is new, but new insofar as he is the last gasp of conservatism that projects individual cunning and will, but this time for the most base monetary ends. prior conservatives exalted the military, aristocratic virtue etc etc, but they cautioned about getting close, less one became dissilusioned. Trump took these individual (right-Nietzschean) elements and adapted them to the overload comment economy. so there is something new there, he isn't the scholarly librarian gentleman mourning a catholic loss, his mourning is precisely that he is his own culmination.
 

firefinga

New member
I think this outlook veers very close to an End Of History prognosis. Dissensus has an inexplicable fondness for diagnosing the End of History. People declaring the End Of History have a track record as dismal as that of people forecasting imminent apocalypse.
That's of course only one - the Spenglerian - way of looking at things.

There's another - eschatological - look at the "end of History" - as promoted by the "woke" liberals/Leftists. They apparently think, if only the whole world goes woke, the globe will be a woke paradise. all of a sudden, all discrimination will have disappeared in a worldwide kum ba yah moment. A "woke" world as the end of history.
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
earthquake history is my prefered way of looking at things. fairly stable periods that then violently shake an explode and then reconstitute everything around them, for positive or negative, often both.
I'm not convinced it's ever really stable anymore, I guess stability is relative though. We've obviously been somewhat stable in the West for a while in comparison to what came before.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
I'm not convinced it's ever really stable anymore, I guess stability is relative though. We've obviously been somewhat stable in the West for a while in comparison to what came before.
it's relatively stable in the UK. the ruling class is still ruling in the old way. we know relatively certainly what's going to happen tomorrow, what will happen in 2 months time. relatively I mean. We know we'll go to work, come home, moan about rising rent prices, etc. of course there is conflict and all but generally all we're doing is stably setting the world in motion for the future generation which unlike us will witness the changes we have made, the shit we've built etc.
 
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