Is taking drugs immoral?

nonseq

New member
10:02am said:
But these are not the people or motives I refer to. The drug-users (and abusers) that I referenced through very general examples are precisely not those who are fooled by 'suburban reality glare' etc. You mention cynicism, but your language seems to imply ignorance. Most drug users that I know are not ignorant to their realities.
Actually I wasn't just talking about drug users but people in general. I put the '(want to)' in 'they don't (want to) know' i.e. there are people who have a vague idea of their complicity but don't want to see the truth in all its horrific detail. Many drug users probably fall into this category. What they are exploring is their own head/bellybutton/arse, not the corruption and violence inherent to illegal drugs.

10:02am said:
Most drug users I know willingly submit to a feeling of morality-lessness, political-lessness, which speaks nothing of their concerns, actions, and guilt of the sober hours.
Yes this is terrible. As if one could 'turn off' morality during the night. Otherwise a murderer on one day, would be a good man the next.
 
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nonseq

New member
sufi said:
i think apathy is immoral anyway
I think strictly speaking 'immoral' means bad 'mores', bad manners, so that would exclude thought per se, without actions. On the other hand, doing nothing is also an action...
 

Melchior

Taking History Too Far
See, reckon that people predominantly take drugs (at least in the beginning) because they are

FUN

They keep taking them for a whole range of reasons, but mostly people start taking drugs for fun. Lots of people don't find them fun, or regard the risks (or complicity with nastiness) and unacceptable trade off for fun. And there's nothin wrong with that.

I think the point about an idea that drugs are inherently moral or good is both common and bullshit. The only reason I mention it is beacuse I would hate, because I personally find that arguement so annoying, for people to think that I was saying that drug use is inherently moral by starting this thread.
 

10:02am

New member
nonseq said:
Yes this is terrible. As if one could 'turn off' morality during the night. Otherwise a murderer on one day, would be a good man the next.

Drugs 'turn off' many things. And by letting go of morality whilst on drugs, I of course don't mean that to be taken to the extreme. The goal and (hopefully) the result of recreational drug use (i.e. FUN!) is not to become amoral or to have the freedom to act harmfully without regret. But the thoughts that obsess and concern the conscious, aware, and intelligent person (especially in a world where it may seem that morality, in politics and elsewhere, is scarce) dissolve a little, not entirely, and allow for more immediate and weightless pleasures that can be healthy. Not terrible. And not involving murder.

PS - I realize I run the risk of sounding like some sort of extreme escapist/hedonist that encourages everyone to take drugs at all opportunity. Quite not true. I certainly am aware of personal damage (and terrible behavior) that can come with heavy drug use of any kind. But I also find a value in the pleasures of letting go, and think that it can live comfortably with a moral life, even one that is concerned more than most with the problems that exist beyond it.
 
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dominic

Beast of Burden
i stand by my position way upthread that drugs are essential to any powerful music scene where everyday social identities are broken down and things are on the level

obviously not everyone who uses drugs sees drug use as a way to access such a transformed social reality, but certainly a good number of users do

for me, it's all about achieving a vision of the good, a take on the good life

and despite all the drawbacks of drugs, the destructive nature of the drug trade, you have to take the bad to have the good

and this is in no way to say that drug use is postively moral or any such hippie nonsense

rather, i believe in music and therefore drugs -- b/c they go hand in hand

and i don't believe in morality as many of the people here seem to define it

for me, morality is about giving people what i *personally* owe them

and so i suppose that if the drug trade has ruined many lives in south america or wherever -- and the burden is on you to show that these lives would not be destroyed by some other renegade trade were there no drug trade -- then i suppose i wash my hands of it

the same way that i wash my hands of everything else that i'm *complicit in* on this earth
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
plus none of you have yet to establish why consuming drugs is any worse than eating chicken or beef

and if it's the criminal and often violent nature of the drug trade that makes it so "bad," then you should consider how legality masks the violent foundations of the powers that be -- which is not to say that there's not also a great deal of popular consent to uphold and legitimate the powers the be, the law, the state, etc, merely to point out that the divide b/w what's kosher and what's not is typically established by violent means
 

Peak

New member
dominic, your last 2 posts crystalise the argument for me, or the two arguments. taking drugs is no worse than eating chicken or beef, all consumption is 'immoral' to the extent that its caught up in the machinations of Kapital, yes agreed.

So why are there this many posts about the morality of drugs rather than chicken or beef? Because like you argue in your previous post (some) people do see their drugs as a moral choice, a vision of the good life /rejection of everyday social identities. A countercultural act.

But if that's true, and I think that is at least part of the thinking for a lot of people, then it is more incumbent on those people to face up to the full social/political implications of their 'countercultural act', moreso than chicken/beefeaters who don't think of their consumption in moral terms in the first place. And more 'immoral' not to acknowledge those implications. Maybe.

Personally the drugs/music/visionary interface is where the category of 'drugs' breaks down for me anyway. Some drugs maybe, others (coke most obviously) just make their users selfish and self-obsessed
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
again, i'm not arguing that drugs are good

or that rampant drug use in the west cannot be taken as a sign of decadence (though i'd say drug use reflects need as well as sin)

rather, my argument is more along the lines that precisely because drugs are illegal and outside the norms of the workaday world (i.e., i'm referring not to the adolescent/college world where drugs are okay, but to the adult/workaday world where drug use is frowned upon), the use of drugs helps to define a social space where ordinary identities are largely, if not entirely, out the window

and this is just as true of cocaine as any other illegal drug -- i.e., there's something in the ritual of taking drugs that serves as a great equalizer -- plus all the dealings with people you might o/w never come into contact with

and as for the drugs/music/visionary interface, i do think that drug use has a kind of "religious" dimension, i.e., the contexts in which illegal drugs are used are post-xian/post-organized religion communal spaces

IN SHORT, i'm not arguing that use of illegal drugs is an unmitigated good by any stretch -- rather, i'm saying that if there weren't damn good reasons for using illegal drugs, then i might be more sympathetic to the position of melchior and others on this thread -- but as things stand, i disagree with the prevailing sentiment on this thread
 

dominic

Beast of Burden
of course young beautiful women seem to prefer social situations where there are lots of drugs on hand

this is obviously an "immoral" reason, but it does factor into my thinking

i don't know about other people, but i have complex motives

(and, no, i don't usually hit on such women -- simply won't deny that i like to have them around)
 

version

Who loves ya, baby?
Middle-class cocaine users are hypocrites, says Met chief | Cressida Dick criticises people with progressive politics whose drug use fuels violence - https://www.theguardian.com/society...s-are-hypocrites-says-met-chief-cressida-dick

The Metropolitan police commissioner has criticised hypocritical middle-class cocaine users who care about fair trade and organic food, but who she said are fuelling the drug trade.

Cocaine was used by an estimated 875,000 people in 2017-18 according to the latest crime survey for England and Wales – the highest number in a decade and a 15% year-on-year rise.

Cressida Dick, the UK’s most senior police chief, said: “There is this challenge that there are a whole group of middle-class – or whatever you want to call them – people who will sit round … happily think about global warming and fair trade, and environmental protection and all sorts of things, organic food, but think there is no harm in taking a bit of cocaine. Well, there is; there’s misery throughout the supply chain.”
 

Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
A reasonable point. Although a lot of people don't realise that weed isn't free from similar considerations (in terms of criminality more than the environmental costs, I suppose) and far more people smoke weed than do coke.
 

kevinoak

New member
Taking drugs is no way immoral if they are used for medical issues. I have a friend whose son has been taking the cbd oil for a few months now. He's not sure if it's helping or not for his epilepsy, but he is weening himself off the meds. More info on CBD oil on ncsm.nl .
 
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