black roots - white fruits

padraig (u.s.)

a monkey that will go ape
however, for WHITE people to call a BLACK AMERICAN "a racist", is far more inadvisable. always. every time. and this idea approach to these issues does not only work in books. strangely enough, i'm not that big on reading about things like this. i far prefer to approach the world in real-life terms, especially when it comes to real-world issues like this.

yes & yes. I'd agree that a lot of the differences (possibly misunderstandings) in this thread about racism come from the disssimilar U.S. & British contexts. I'm American & as Stelfox mentioned the view of racism here, at least when people are dissecting/theorizing about it, tends to be much more along the lines of power & institutions. there's a bunch of reasons for that, a few of them having to do w/the dreaded long hand of history, but I feel like everyone's all argued-out so I'll refrain from delving further into my take on it.

also co-sign whole-heartedly that real-life terms are always preferrable. I have very negative connotations around white people calling out blacks for racism or "reverse-racism", probably b/c so many white Americans are absolutely fucking clueless when it comes to race. anyway, in this particular situation I think we all agree Theo Parrish comes off like a prick, even if one can understand the motivations behind some of his feelings, and I'm happy to leave it at that.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"I wasn't surprised at all by it; it reminded me of Miles Davis's autobiography - full of the same anger and confusion about how white people treat black people - and if your only response to that is "but not all white people are racist; how dare he" it's really missing the point."
There is nothing in the quotes you took from MD that is comparable to the stuff in Theo Parrish's interview saying "whites shouldn't be there". I think that statement crosses over a line from paranoid/righteous (delete as appropriate) anger into racism.

"Stelfox just wants to shut everybody up, because he is RIGHT"
In fairness I think at least one of those comments was a joke.
 

Jaie Miller

Well-known member
ah dont see, what theo parrish has sayed here, that has anything to do with black people, in general - let me finish - what i get from this is a strong sense of, the views here expressed are dot dot dot. and nothing else. one mans words.

this to me, hasn't even begun to be a debate about race. not yet. not slightly.

something to do with what to and what not to call african americans, african british, african asian, african african, african other, i take it theres a pamphlet coming soon, for who? white tourists or white people who may be offended at certain stages of a conversation...or something man. holla.

some guy brings up all this stuff early on as some kind of clairvoyance and then it all kicks off. HA!

tell Theo....there are more polite ways of being racist. from Jaie.

should have been on some quiet as it's kept stuff....ooops.

and you know what..."what?" im not sure if i got this right so im just gonna say it to get some clarity ok.......

i get this feeling of, racism and power-racism and power.....like, dont say nothing if you've got power...money or whatever, Theos got money, what's he talking about, Theo cant say shit, you sweet nigga what you talking about, look at all this stuff you got, what you talking about, you got NHS over here you cant say shit, you know, you're lucky to be here, you better keep hush boy....

now if you're young and you are black and you're hat is real low and you look like a mid reader...i dont want to believe a word of that....none of it...no matter how it's articulated...pffffft.

if you are in a position of power USE YOUR VOICE...use your voice to speak out about the injustice and the imbalance that you see around you everyday, no matter if it directly affects you......in fact the more power you have...the louder you have to speak.


what happened to being a voice for the voiceless???

the feeling i get from this is, don't say shit unless you are going through it...well guess what?! "what?!" the people who are going through it cant speak....maybe even can't read...word up. so it's up to people like Parrish to speak and upset a few heads, if thats what its gonna take for people to wakey wakey and look and see , shit aint all good even today....

black people are still the most violently oppressed people in the world today...but look "what" i dont say that shit to win an argument ok...black people with sense, dont bring that stuff up to win an argument, we dont just go around throwing up colonialism or slavery to make white folk feel bad...boo hoo.... recognize

black people are still the most violently oppressed people in the world today....Dalits perhaps. The black untouchables of india....so you know what.....Theo should have just spoken about that for the time as far as im concerned...since the guy is so keen to know.

but look im a moron, ok, a fool, racist even!* so just remember that when you are breaking all this up into efficient quotes that you can use to display your profound wisdom and such.


if you think im out here complaining about the past or complaining about this country or where im at, you're wrong, "black people think this, black people think that, black people over here can say this, black people over here can say that....well i think that the power structure today is....." uh huh, ok, what's up.....:rolleyes:
 

stelfox

Beast of Burden
fine. i think there are bigger things to worry about here. like, for instance, a really disturbing, almost daily mail-style outrage to racial discourse and identity politics that i really would have hoped not to have encountered here. and please don't tell me what my motivations are. if i say i'm joking, i'm joking. if i want to tell people where to get off, i'm pretty well capable of doing that in a open and honest way, too.

sorry rich, that initial post wasn't directed at you.
 
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stelfox

Beast of Burden
i didn't dare to leave it?
who is this guy, seriously?
i thought better of it, especially as it could have been misinterpreted by someone who it wasn't directed at.
also i'd rather not let an (albeit somewhat diappointing) thread about interesting stuff get into a pathetic personal slanging match, something you seem determined to kick off. goodbye.
 
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Mr. Tea

Shub-Niggurath, Please
Staff member
i can see what dave is saying here. its kind of like arguing against positive discrimination, cos it is discrimination in some form or another.
As it happens I don't think positive discrimination is necessarily a bad idea, at least as far as education is concerned, because there is still a big gap and anything that can be done to close it is at least worth looking at. The good news is black kids' GCSE results are improving faster than the average, so (in the UK at least) the gap is narrowing.
(Also, who's Dave?)
however, everyone can be racist and i think its abhorrent. here in south london i've heard west indian people saying appalling things about poles, the usual shit they'd have got when they arrived.
Yeah, it's funny that, isn't it? You kind of assume anyone who's militantly anti-immigration is going to be some xenophobic Little Englander, but immigration gets a lot of vociferous opposition from people who are themselves immigrants, or the children of immigrants. I guess they're more likely to be at the lower end of things economically, and will naturally resent a new flux of people who are going to compete with them for housing and so on and maybe cause wage deflation.
 

bassnation

the abyss
As it happens I don't think positive discrimination is necessarily a bad idea, at least as far as education is concerned, because there is still a big gap and anything that can be done to close it is at least worth looking at. The good news is black kids' GCSE results are improving faster than the average, so (in the UK at least) the gap is narrowing.
(Also, who's Dave?)

dave = dave stelfox. stelfox isn't his first name, you know that don't you? :)

yeah, agree - wasn't arguing against positive discrimination, but drawing a parallel between calling african americans racists. jesus, these things get so complicated don't they?

Yeah, it's funny that, isn't it? You kind of assume anyone who's militantly anti-immigration is going to be some xenophobic Little Englander, but immigration gets a lot of vociferous opposition from people who are themselves immigrants, or the children of immigrants. I guess they're more likely to be at the lower end of things economically, and will naturally resent a new flux of people who are going to compete with them for housing and so on and maybe cause wage deflation.

when people get in through the door they resent others who also want to come later. which goes pretty much all the way back to the first dwellers here. no human is indigenous to europe remember, we are all immigrants if you go back far enough.

i'd even go so far as to argue that the most vulnerable people in the uk today are not black british people, although i'm not doubting theres still huge issues with racism from individuals and institutions (plus a load of other problems that are tangental or indirectly related). the most vulnerable today will be asylum seekers, from a plethora of different places, who can't work, who are imprisoned, treated like fucking cattle. the eastern europeans in particular have been through equivalent shit to anyone from JA or africa. you don't have to be black to suffer and be angry.

everyone has a reason to be wounded, and to pass that on to future generations as their identity and legacy. but like i said, carrying that on risks demonising and hurting other people who weren't responsible decades or even hundreds of years later. is it really justifiable when those people are discriminated against by black people (and others, obviously) - to just say, oh well its dodgy talking about racism cos of history and the balance of power, or do we bite the bullet and just say its fucking wrong whoever says it? i know where i stand.

however, one last caveat to that: its a pity that the history that i talked about isn't taught to everyone, not just the people who went through it. i know i learnt things in wales which had happened to my ancestors which i assumed was common knowledge - when i moved to england people here just thought the welsh / scots / irish are being uppitity, divisive etc. the winners get taught one thing, thats for sure. maybe it would help with understanding each other better.
 
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luka

Well-known member
Staff member
Of course, let's just all only talk about how we are personally disadvantaged, that sounds like a great recipe for unity and fighting power. Or is it only black people who have right to complain about anything?

It's fucking stupid and offensive. No wonder you get people talking about how the white working class has been abandoned.

If you are black, or fat, or gay, or whatever, and you look at everything through that lens, if your whole identity is bound up in that then, apart from most likely being an asshole, you are going to have a very distorted view of the world and how others experience it. You are going to resent your fellows and assume they have an easy time or are somehow responsible for your suffering because they don't have exactly the same experience as you. And you are going to miss who the real enemy is, that we share.

So let's fight amongst ourselves and blame each other while the rich and powerful laugh at our division.

Early culture war clash on dissensus.

For me it's fairly obvious what you're buying into with Theo Parrishes music. If you like the music you're already a conservative reactionary. You don't have a right to be shocked by the opinions in the interviews.
 
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chava

Well-known member
Funny to read this now. A lot of sensible people was on here once it seems. I am a big Theo fan, but I've learned never to read interviews with musicians as they are bar the very very few exceptions complete idiots
 

thirdform

Well-known member
Early culture war clash on dissensus.

For me it's fairly obvious what you're buying into with Theo Parrishes music. If you like the music you're already a conservative reactionary. You don't have a right to be shocked by the opinions in the interviews.

I don't see how liking theo's music makes you a conservative reactionary, and I'm pretty divided on him, but he's made some stuff which is more machinic than any pre-2001 4x4 london garage.
 

chava

Well-known member
I don't see how liking theo's music makes you a conservative reactionary, and I'm pretty divided on him, but he's made some stuff which is more machinic than any pre-2001 4x4 london garage.

This one is more abstract and stripped down than the most minimal DBX record:

T
 

thirdform

Well-known member
What, even when they're being just that? I can't really see the problems of racism and racial inequality getting much better any time soon when you've got people, of any skin colour, promoting segregation the way he seems to be (at clubs/parties, where people are supposed to relax, have fun and forget about their hang-ups, right?). He also trots out some tired Afrocentrist rubbish about how "all music music is originated on black experience".

He's got some good points, but he's got some badly over-simplified and misdirected ones too.

Edit: he also thinks RATM were an "all-white band", bless.

tbf the caister lot wouldn't let black people into their clubs in the late 70s, chris hill and em lot, despite dancing to soul music, and this in London. I'd hate to imagine how it was over in the States. Theo's comments our out of wack though cos the chicago and NY ogs were always into white music and as a whole allowed white people into such venues. So he's analytically wrong, but not because you were offended in 2008.
 

thirdform

Well-known member
There's some question as to whether or not Theo Parrish is actually in a position of privilege and power relative to white dance artists and audiences, though, or at least whether they're in a position of privilege and power relative to him. I don't know much about his background but he's university educated and a respected techno producer. And the parties where the belleville 3 began - parties where white people 'didn't belong' - were distinctly well heeled affairs. So the idea that because he's black he's automatically in the role of the oppressed seems a bit reductionist.

Those weren't debauched club nights as we would understand them over here, or even in Chicago, they were closer to highschool parties. you get that in the UK as well, pakistani lads will have their own nights, Jamaicans, whites. Some of it is unconscious bias. if the white kid is calling u muzzy ur not gonna hang out with him unless he reforms his ways, you're gonna play football with the ethnics. Standard stuff.
 
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