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Thread: Jordan Peterson thinks it makes sense to compare humans with lobsters

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    Identity politics doesn't exist anymore. it's just naked liberal politics now dissolving in the solvent of global capitalism. they invented gay capitalism and now they are inventing feel good queer capitalism. they are bound to figure out prostitution, transgender and disabled friendly capitalism in the next 5 years at the most.
    Now you sound alt-right. Confusing. I think something is getting lost in translation because the word "liberal" has different connotations in the US. Let me try to decipher this.

    So we might be on the same page. To me the obsession with identity and identity "badges" (gay, trans, neo-feminist... ad infinitum) correlates with the rise of social media, where identity badges are like social currency. You create your online profile and put on all your badges and medals (gay, Muslim, Bernieite, socially liberal but fiscally libertarian, for example). It started with people trying to create an idealized digital version of themselves on social media (just come off as normal and happy and successful as possible), then social media became about showing off how much you care about this or that social cause (hashtag activisim) or tragic event ("hearts and prayers.... wait we need 10% more hearts"), and now, inevitably, it's about creating a "unique" identity, a constellation of political and cultural interests that you can claim as part of your identity. The reason? So we can outlet our rage when something offends our group-serving biases, band together with our team and gang up on anyone that doesn't 'scan' or fit the mold. My treatment here, 10 years ago when I was anti-fascist, and now that I'm the "basement dwelling nonce," is but one example of this dynamic.

    Man speaking of dissolving in solvent I need some more of that flualprazolam. Getting worked up over nothing for no reason.

  2. #167
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    absolutely not what i was saying at all. americans always take too many drugs. just like the English not being able to handle their alcohol.

    I'm saying there is no more obsession with identity badges. it's finished. it's nothing but marketing now. money making. it doesn't exist as a distinct politics. it is basically marketing the democrats and affiliated travellers. it's done. the alt right can't concede this because they are on their way out as well. to concede that identity politics was subsumed by capital to further justify its class rule would have to make them come out as raging white supremacists. they know they can't numerically or physically do that.
    Last edited by thirdform; 22-05-2019 at 12:24 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vimothy View Post
    I respect islamists

  3. #168
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    You might be right. From brand identity to identity branding. Since politics now encompasses every aspect of life (conservatives HAVE TO drive pickup trucks, liberals HAVE TO shop at the Whole Foods Market), identity politics is just a vector for targeted marketing campaigns based on demographic modelling.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    https://theconversation.com/psycholo...-do-they-90489

    this is frighteningly ignorant.

    sure - some animals are sentient and have (as individuals) profound connections to consciousness - dogs, octopuses, dolphins, cats.

    lobsters? i don't think so.

    with all respect to lobsters but they're WAY down the consciousness pecking order. as such their actions aren't motivated by the same higher instincts. call me specist.

    to make arguments about what's valid for humans based on how lobsters behave is to entirely misunderstand what makes mankind special. and in this instance, to validate tiers of authority between people, it's scarily wrongheaded.
    No, the statement I highlighted is "frighteningly ignorant." Nothing makes mankind special. We're made of all the same shit animals are made of: same neurons, same basic genetic code, same neurotransmitters and hormones. "Consciousness" is just the latest and probably last attempt to convince ourselves that we are somehow different from the rest of the animal kingdom. First, we were made in God's image or have "souls" (nope), then we're the only intelligent animals (wrong), or we're the only one's that feel things like pain or fear (that's so stupid I don't know where to start: how do you survive in nature if you can't feel pain or fear?), now all we have left is this mysterious property called "consciousness," which no one can really define other than "awareness that you are aware," which has no corollary in actual experience. You are never aware that you are a being with awareness. It sounds good, it even feels true, but there is no actual experience that correlates with that statement. And inserting a mysterious property you can't even define into a blank space is called magical thinking, and that's what makes this attitude "frighteningly ignorant."

    Also: that you use dogs and cats as examples of animals with semi-consciousness says it all. If something can communicate with us, they seem intelligent and sentient. Therefore we ascribe the magical property, part of it at least, onto them. That's just human-centric, and that's the problem. If it ain't like us it is an object, a non-entity. If anything makes us special it's some form of collective narcissistic personality disorder.
    Last edited by Agent Nucleus; 22-05-2019 at 05:22 PM.

  5. #170
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    Humans and lobsters are obviously motivated by the same lower, or more basic, instincts. That doesn't, in itself, form an argument for the inherent rightness of top-down hierarchies in human societies, which (I think) is where JP is going with it.

    But you're right though, there isn't any particular hard and fast distinction setting humans and apes and dogs and so on in one group, and lobsters in another. A lobster is probably a lot closer to a human than it is to an amoeba by any meaningful metric, for example.
    Last edited by Mr. Tea; 23-05-2019 at 08:10 AM.
    Doin' the Lambeth Warp New: DISSENSUS - THE NOVEL - PM me your email address and I'll add you

  6. #171
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    Right. The point is we cannot know what something is thinking if we can't communicate with it, and the further our experience of reality is from the person/animal we are trying to communicate with, the harder it will be to understand how (or if) they think. No one thought cephalopods were intelligent until we put them in a lab setting and noticed that, like us, they can use tools and think through difficult problems. Yet people still eat live octopus, and boil lobsters alive, I guess because their experience is so remote to us, they evolved in such a radically different environment, that we intuitively perceive them as objects.

    To the original poster and anyone who agrees that lobsters are "low on the consciousness totem pole" (paraphrasing): when a squirrel runs in front of you while driving, do you 1) flatten it without a second thought, 2) hit the brakes/swerve, or 3) honk your horn? I honk my horn because I see a sensate, intelligent being. It works every time.

    Related question: if you put a naked human on a desert island with no supplies, nothing, and at the same time placed a squirrel on the same island, who would survive longer? My money is on the squirrel.
    Last edited by Agent Nucleus; 24-05-2019 at 12:35 AM.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nucleus View Post
    Okay, for real this time, I bid you adieu.
    just like the old days

  8. #173
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    I know, I thought I was stronger but at the moment I'm laid up with some health issues and Dissensus is the only thing left that provides real joy and real belly laughs, like crazy laughing fits, for me.

    Unrelated: Was there a single Hollywood comedy film from the 2010's that could be called "great" or "classic?" The best I could come up with was Ted, and that worries me. Maybe all the comedy energy was transferred to Internet memes and Black Twitter, idk.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdform View Post
    Identity politics doesn't exist anymore. it's just naked liberal politics now dissolving in the solvent of global capitalism. they invented gay capitalism and now they are inventing feel good queer capitalism.
    Okay a few questions. 1) What is 'gay capitalism', 2) who invented 'gay capitalism' again?, 3) what is the difference between gay capitalism and 'feel good queer capitalism'?, 4) what kind of drugs do you use regularly? and finally, 5) do you talk in real life like you do on this message board and if the answer is yes, 6) how are you still alive?

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nucleus View Post
    Unrelated: Was there a single Hollywood comedy film from the 2010's that could be called "great" or "classic?" The best I could come up with was Ted, and that worries me. Maybe all the comedy energy was transferred to Internet memes and Black Twitter, idk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nucleus View Post
    Okay a few questions. 1) What is 'gay capitalism', 2) who invented 'gay capitalism' again?, 3) what is the difference between gay capitalism and 'feel good queer capitalism'?, 4) what kind of drugs do you use regularly? and finally, 5) do you talk in real life like you do on this message board and if the answer is yes, 6) how are you still alive?
    Sorry but I demand answers.

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