Hades Presents: MJ vs. Prince

Word to your mother, the ig.

Michael changed dancing. Was having a convo with a choreographer about exactly that the other day. Once solo MJ came along, the game changed forever. It was beyond even that though. The guy was a physical and sonic manifestation of music, culture & people. Prince was an incredible dancer too ofc, but I don't think on quite as revolutionary a level as MJ.

craner's eschewed his usual panache and fanfare, instead casting a stealth vote.

luka said:

I mean obviously this is true and yet it's also true that Americans are outwardly oriented in a way we aren't. It's a very extroverted country. A huge amount of focus on the way you present yourself. The white teeth. The eye contact. The firm handshake.

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It was the new world. The place to become rich and live your dreams. So of course it was all about big, loud and proud. Competition innate, and man look how much came from it for better or worse. Culture central.

Add onto that Eddie Bernays and all the Century of the Self individualism. That shit was born there.

Where has 'the ig' been all my life?

the ig said:

Thinking about Quincy's pointillist sonics for MJ: all dabs & touches, precisely deployed tuned-perc, strings like deft wand-strokes, all bright but not sterile, the studio-based song as a constellation of perfected gestures.

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describing it as a "constellation" is great. is the most beautiful bit of prose ever written about music.

move over reynolds, there's a new ig in town.

He's right about everything too. The endorphin rush of prime MJ is pretty much unique but it's only a handful of songs. The Prince catalogue is much deeper but it's less, dunno, pure. Prince never disappears. They're always Prince songs. A bit pervy, a bit off, preening. There's personality there whereas the top tier MJ ones are just eternal Platonic forms realised by man.

sadmanbarty said:

craner's eschewed his usual panache and fanfare, instead casting a stealth vote.

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What did he vote for?

pattycakes_ said:

It was the new world. The place to become rich and live your dreams. So of course it was all about big, loud and proud. Competition innate, and man look how much came from it for better or worse. Culture central.

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I think it's more than that though. I think it's very close to a whole change in the sense of self and the idea of truth. There is no real truth authentic experience within any more it's all about what is presented in the social field by bodily cues.

I think this is why the confidence trickster is an American archetype

luka said:

What did he vote for?

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prince of course.

cranerline flint

jackson songs are ancient greek statues, prince is henry moore.

luka said:

I think it's more than that though. I think it's very close to a whole change in the sense of self and the idea of truth. There is no real truth authentic experience within any more it's all about what is presented in the social field by bodily cues.

I think this is why the confidence trickster is an American archetype

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Agree. But the thing is, you get those loud extroverts wherever you go around the world. In the UK, here in Germany, Botswana. And I think it's probably been like that since day 0. But you've always needed substance to pull it off in even basic level company. America was the place where it became the aim. Celebrated. You can be a star, a hero. Hollywood etc. Fake it til you make it.

luka said:

There's personality there whereas the top tier MJ ones are just eternal Platonic forms realised by man.

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Power is the force, the vow (Oh power)
That makes it happen, it asks no questions why (Ooh)

Uncanny parallells between this and the Wiley/Stormzy thread imo. Stormzy is a false construct much as MJ is- some great songs and a rabid fanbase (i am not comparing status or legacy of the two here), but ultimately they are pandering to the crowd and aiming straight for a populist jugular.

Whereas Prince & Wiley are ploughing slightly off-centre and, I would argue, highly personal ideals. There are occasional diversions into populist avenues, and there's no question that they're immensely talented, but ultimately their music is full of strange idiosyncrasies and ticks. You could even reference the extended Paisley Park universe as a parallel to Roll Deep/BBK etc- there is a huge focus in Prince's lineage to furthering the careers of really niche pet projects and Wiley is the same. Tinchy Stryder as Sheila E. The rebelllion against record labels, perverse moments of self-sabotage and endless output with huge periods of shite inbetween.

Personally although MJ had some amazing songs over the years, ultimately he's just a vessel for the production team/songwriters imo. I don't believe a word of any of it- maybe the nonce rumours cloud everything- and ultimately, for all the astonishing output during his peak, he's just a product of a pop machine. Plus when he went shit he really went shit- have you tried listening to HIstory? Its fucking abysmal.

Whereas Prince might be boring and shit and weird at times, but at least his music is real and authentic, true to him, however odd and sleazy it can be. (Although i view the sleaze as a positive). Peak Prince has a lot more depth and personality. Plus he wrote I Feel For You.

If anyone voted for both MJ and Stormzy- was the Wiley thread a poll? - then I would have severe reservations about their character and ban them from discussion tbh. Embracing the false plasticity as opposed to the frayed character, revealing slightly too much.

Tinchy Strider as Sheila E is genius. Definitely the Prince sleaze/perviness is part of the appeal. Massive part of what makes it great.

Lol slackk, gtfooh! As if Michael had any choice in his position. He was groomed onto it by his dad and then all the enablers. You get them that young and what else is there to be expected? Prince is a homebrew. A true auteur. Fuelled by pain and misery. Even at his peak fame, his MPLS friends would call him the lonely guy. He was bound to go the way he did. Practically inevitable. But regardless of all that, writing off MJ because of his later works is like writing off Brando because of Superman. Or Miles because of his 80s period. What happened in MJs personal life is one of the great tragedies ever. Because he stood for and actually achieved something musicians have strived for forever, which was to change the world. No one else did it on his level. Not Bob, not John, not no one.

And if you seriously don't think Prince was the cleverest marketer/fan base panderer ever then idk what to tell you. The difference is he did it his way.

They're the two greatest, and both have their pros and cons. Both had shit periods. But which great artist didn't?

Despite how monumentally weird and twisted Jackson was there's really no sense of personality in the records at all. No sense of Jackson the man. This is what I mean about the Platonic form. There's nothing accidental, arbitrary, just the song and it's flawless delivery. It's very strange in a way, to disappear like that. Just the performance. You're not there.

Patty cakes is the woman who let the doves out at Jackson’s trial