Africans in Grime

[luka]

i wouldn't want to say grime owes more to dancehall than hiphop no. a lot of english people do want to say that to distinguish grime from US hiphop but i don't think that's necessary. lets just say it's 50/50. i don't want to get bogged down in details here anyway, its a broad outline of an idea. lets not nitpick, its irritating.

 

[stelfox]

dunno, i think it's totally equally weighted between the two in the rap v ragga argument. dancehall and hip-hop really are the default musics for black urban youth (well, all urban youth, really), no matter what their lineage - african, caribbean, whatever - and you can definitely hear this.
this is important to remember, in as much as while not every south asian kid in the uk is indian or hindu, desi has become the sound of south asian youth, regardless of whether the roots of this music have anything to do with where their families originally hail from. while it still exists and these kids are still aware of it you don't hear an awful lot of pakistani guzel singing in asian diasporic party music. bhangra is now the pop/dance ligua franca and that's almost exactly the way to look at african music in the context of grime, when juxtaposed with hip-hop/ragga.
this is not to say that absolutely *all* of these things don't completely cross cultural borders, affect everyone and end up bleeding together at some point, though (as they absolutely should), otherwise there'd be no timbaland, lenky etc etc and i'd not know half as much about it as i do.
anyway, in short, i'm not saying that african music doesn't have an influence (it does, remember wiley talking to martin c about taking trips to sterns?), but you still need to look to ragga and rap as the foundations and cornerstones - anything else is paint on the walls, important and often beautiful but not holding the building up. in fact, i'd go as far as to contend that ragga/soundsystem culture is perhaps the single most important common denominator and binding factor in the whole ardkore 'nuum.

 

[blissblogger]

race

>why does this anthropological stuff have to creep into everything? bunch of white guys talking about the >relative qualities of african vs. afro-caribbean communties, no matter how informed, comes across as a >bit off.

this reminds me a bit of the MIA-debate, a bizarre squeamishness about talking about race (and class), how can you even discuss these musics and what they mean and why they matter, without talking about this stuff?

i would have thought the differences of countries of origin, while very interesting (it's also always interesting to be reminded that there's more to the Caribbean than Jamaica, dozens of islands all with their own peculiar histories and ethnic compositions), gets pretty much subsumed within a black British identity. and it's a sufficiently broad one that a lot South Asian kids can buy into it.

hip hop as the lingua negra or summat

 

[stelfox]

>(it's also always interesting to be reminded that there's more to the Caribbean than Jamaica, dozens of islands all with their own peculiar histories and ethnic compositions), gets pretty much subsumed within a black British identity. and it's a sufficiently broad one that a lot South Asian kids can buy into it.

hip hop as the lingua negra or summat

yeah, you need to go to a good soca bash to be reminded of this in pretty grand style - hordes of people waving different flags in the air, each one from a different caribbean island, going berserk. the fact that soca is actually a fusion of calypso and bhangra anyway is also pretty interesting, because you'd think that if any caribbean music would naturally hit a south asian audience hard it would be this. however, it doesn't really. it's just that hip hop and dancehall are the loudest voices for whatever reason (leverage within the marketplace is a big part of it in hip-hop's case, but plain listenability is a pretty big consideration... too much soca does my nut in, personally, even though i do love it).

 

[luka]

i think the point that's being made though simon is that 'black british identity' is being redefined by this new generaion of africans.

 

[Blackdown]

couldn't it be possible to put too much emphasis on the guiding influence of ethnic background? remember so much of grime was a rejection of the (immediate) 2step past, a response to local environment and daily beefs/politics.

what about the influence of grime artist's own creativity and free will, their ability to change their own musical paths? you can see grime's link with dancehall begin in Wiley's "Ice Rink" versions, but in no way can you draw a link to dancehall with the wierd, harsh sonics he chose in that track.

surely grime (or any creative genre) is greater than the sum of its influences and ethnic origins?

 

[Noah Baby Food]

Not sure about this thread. Don't wanna diss anyone but this comes across as overly earnest and a bit 'tourist-y', get me? Think some of this chat is basically analyzing things to death. Let's keep some of the magic...

 

[ambrose]

dancehall and hip-hop really are the default musics for ...(well, all urban youth, really),

er.................

dont think so

 

[JanuaryinGermany]

the fact that soca is actually a fusion of calypso and bhangra anyway is also pretty interesting, because you'd think that if any caribbean music would naturally hit a south asian audience hard it would be this. ).

This is the first I've heard of this fusion. Tell me more. Bhangra is mainly Sikh Punjabi music; I thought that it was mainly (indentured) Hindus who migrated to the Caribbean.

 

[gabriel]

there's a quite a lot of stuff which gets called 'chutney' which is basically soca style beats but with indian-sounding melodies, instrumentation and so on. i've always thught of this as an offshoot of soca rather than the other way round, though; the indian population of trinidad&tobago etc doing their take on the older soca style, in the same way bhangra/desi in the uk is the asian take on r'n'b/hiphop/garage/house/d&b/dancehall/whatever. maybe not though, maybe it's been a parallel thing for years. all the chutney i know is from the past few years only. .. anyone? either way, i don't know about the different origin of those that make chutney in caribbean and bhangra in the uk though.

 

[Woebot]

This is the first I've heard of this fusion. Tell me more. Bhangra is mainly Sikh Punjabi music; I thought that it was mainly (indentured) Hindus who migrated to the Caribbean.

I don't think anyone's suggesting a fusion at all. I don't think you could find any explicitly African influence on Grime at all. Obv Afro-American.

 

[arcaNa]

-off topic, BTW, but just had to say it:
Listening to Grime from norway is just like sitting on mars and hearing an alien broadcasting...!

 

[redcrescent]

Chutney soca / soca chutney

(=popular music of the Indo-Caribbean community of Trinidad and Tobago.)

JanuaryinGermany is OTM about bhangra (Punjabi/Sikh/North Indian) and indentured servants in the West Indies (who mainly came from Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Bengal and the Madras area/Hindu/Western + Southern India). The early influences for what would later be called chutney soca were Bhajans (devotional songs, sung in Creolized Hindi), Bollywood (filmi) songs/melodies and ghazals (non-devotional 'light entertainment' songs), although the instrumentation is quite similar to bhangra (dhols, dholaks, tablas, tassa drums, sitars, harmoniums, etc.) A good article on the history of chutney music here.

If you want to hear what chutney soca sounds like, check here. Slightly dated tracks from the 1998 Chutney Soca Monarch competition, but what the heck.
The ruling Chutney Soca Monarch is Heeralal Rampartap (full listing of Carnival 2005 winners here.)

A very good compilation (budget, too!) is Hot and Spicy Chutney (1998?) on the (now defunct?) Nascente label. Well worth scouring the bargain bins for.

If you drop reggaeton, desi bhangra, vallenato/merengue/bachata and/or (obv.) soca, this kind of stuff works great.

Apart from chutney soca, Trini soca (itself the 'pop' form of calypso/kaiso) has produced some amazing fusions.
Rapso (Rap/soca), e.g. Brother Resistance (who, incidentially, is a devout Rastafarian)
Parang soca (Mix of soca with native Indian guitar-based parang, mostly Spanish lyrics), e.g. Crazy "Parang Soca"
Jamoo (soca with less bacchanal, more spiritual feel)

Off topic, apologies.

 

[worrior]

Thought my trip to the Royal Festival Hall last night might throw some light on possible African connections (musically/culturally) with E London grime. Anyone else at this? Dizzee was advertised as collaborating with the Nigerian-born afro-beat drummer Tony Allen. Thought might prove interesting what with Dizzee's Nigerian roots, and similar off kilter beats. But transpired Dizzee and Tony Allen were performing separately. So maybe any connections are more imposed by the well-meaning bloggerati (and south bank festival organizers). A lot of youth next to me left during Tony Allen to reappear later for Dizzee, and hard to equate Allen's languid and organic Afro-funk/jazz/rock with Dizzee's rapid-fire delivery and synthetic beats.
Dizzee's mum apparently was in the royal box though.

 

[gabriel]

A very good compilation (budget, too!) is Hot and Spicy Chutney (1998?) on the (now defunct?) Nascente label. Well worth scouring the bargain bins for.

Off topic, apologies.

more off topic, sorry... thanks for the info. nascente records still alive and kicking, just released a comp called urban latino with a few reggaeton tunes on there (also latin hiphop/r'n'b) and about to do a an entirely reggaeton cd in the next few months. will get scouring

 

[redcrescent]

X, good to hear that about Nascente. They had some fine comps a while back, you could listen in on a variety of stuff for very little money. I'll look out for the reggaeton one for sure. If you can't get a hold of Hot & Spicy, PM me your address and I'll send you a copy.

Checked your recent Heatwave mix off scandalbag a few days back, now again, I really rate it. Heatwave vs Más Fuego sounds like a great party. If I were in London this Fri I know where I'd be! Do big this up in the main forum.

Much more off topic...

 

[Grievous Angel]

I don't think anyone's suggesting a fusion at all. I don't think you could find any explicitly African influence on Grime at all. Obv Afro-American.

I think I am, now.

I read in yesterday's evening standard that Dizzee's just done a gig with Tony Allen where he was explicitly fusing grime rhythms and rapping with afrobeat instrumentation.

I quite like the sound of that.

It talked about one motivation of Dizzee doing it being that he wanted to re-connect with his Ghanaian background.

Interesting connection.

So overall it seems like Luka was onto something big style.

 

[hint]

I read in yesterday's evening standard that Dizzee's just done a gig with Tony Allen where he was explicitly fusing grime rhythms and rapping with afrobeat instrumentation.

I quite like the sound of that.

vs.

Thought my trip to the Royal Festival Hall last night might throw some light on possible African connections (musically/culturally) with E London grime. Anyone else at this? Dizzee was advertised as collaborating with the Nigerian-born afro-beat drummer Tony Allen. Thought might prove interesting what with Dizzee's Nigerian roots, and similar off kilter beats. But transpired Dizzee and Tony Allen were performing separately.

so... which was it? did dizzee's gig actually include any afrobeat instrumentation, specifically for the occasion?

 

[jenks]

mate of mine went and he backs up worrior - the kids politely waiting for the african dancers and musicians to get off the stage before the arrival of the rascal

 

[b/v]

The foremost figure in British hip hop did not achieve his status, record sales, and numerous awards without putting on first-class gigs, and last night was no exception.

Few in this eminent venue would have felt comfortable at a typical Dizzee Rascal show. But as he began his set in unusually understated style, sitting on a chair to perform the aptlynamed Sitting Here, it was clear that he had brought some of his fan base with him.

Leaping from their seats and mobbing the stage area, his teenage devotees held aloft a sea of mobile phones in the manner in which a previous generation used to sport lighters.

The performance, which featured well-received support from Nigerian drummer, Tony Allen, was part of the Africa Remix festival, celebrating African acts and those with an African link. What's Rascal's connection with Africa? The obvious answer is that he was born to a Ghanaian mother, but there was more to it than that.

In an a cappella free-style, he created his own, complex time signatures as he spat improvised lyrics to the head-nodding delight of all sections of this varied audience.

He may have ended with the catchy, Captain Sensible-inspired Dream, followed by hits Fix Up, Look Sharp and Stand Up Tall, but he made few concessions to mainstream sensibilities.

The bulk of his set consisted of the tough hip hop and "grime" beats that are least accessible to outsiders. This decision cost him the crazed response he may have received for a more melodious set.

But, in common with many African musical genres, his was a sound that had little to do with melody and everything to do with rhythm - a complex, stimulating rhythm that was hard to follow, but impossible to ignore.​

​

hmm.

no, there was no collaboration or crossover of material. tony allen just played a support set, and apologised for holding up the main act. was a shame, since i'd also been intrigued at the idea there might be some form of collaboration, especially after the guest appearance with matthew herbert seemed to have opened that door.

raskit played a fairly straight set - all album or single versions, no other material, no fix up/lean back or reloads. the audience might have had something to do with that - so many really young kids and their parents.