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droid

Guest
it was cheating, but it wasn't exactly underhanded.

Clearly. It was overhanded.

Pity F1 drivers dont take such an 'acceptable' approach. Sacrificing yourself by ramming opponents off the road when your teams victory is threatened would make for a much more exciting spectacle. It would work in the TDF as well.
 

jenks

thread death
Clearly. It was overhanded.

Pity F1 drivers dont take such an 'acceptable' approach. Sacrificing yourself by ramming opponents off the road when your teams victory is threatened would make for a much more exciting spectacle. It would work in the TDF as well.

But it wouldn't happen because it would physically hurt as well (just look at the carnage yesterday)- which would exclude you from performing for much longer than a red card suspension.
 

BareBones

wheezy
the german keeper "cheated" by carrying lampard's shot back over the goal line and pretending it hadn't gone in, but we're all fawning over germany at the moment so nobody is giving him any suarez-level grief about it.

all this new germany-worship has gotten out of hand if you ask me. yes they've been brilliant and yes they have a domestic football infrastructure that we would all love to have in the uk, but if I have to read the words "youthful" and "vibrant" again then i'm gonna go nuts.
 

BareBones

wheezy
nah you can't compare handballing on the line to ramming someone off the track in F1, that's a right stretch.

would definitely make F1 more exciting though, you're right there.
 
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droid

Guest
But it wouldn't happen because it would physically hurt as well (just look at the carnage yesterday)- which would exclude you from performing for much longer than a red card suspension.

Hmmm... not quite, but:

On 28 September 2008, on the fourteenth lap of the Singapore race, the Renault R28 driven by Piquet crashed into the circuit wall at turn seventeen, necessitating a safety car deployment. The other Renault driver, Fernando Alonso, subsequently went on to win the race. Piquet described his crash at the time as a simple mistake.

After being dropped by the Renault team following the 2009 Hungarian Grand Prix, Piquet alleged that he had been asked by the team to deliberately crash to improve the race situation for Alonso, sparking an investigation of Renault F1 for race fixing by Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA), the Formula One governing body. After an investigation, Renault F1 were charged with conspiracy on 4 September, and were to answer the charge on 21 September 2009.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Formula_One_crash_controversy
 

jenks

thread death
Ok maybe with a sufficient cage in a car you might (didn't Schmu do soemthing similar once, and Senna I seem to remember) but can't see it happening in the TDF anytime soon.

Essentially though anything which turns motor sport into something approaching Death race 2000 is what you are after.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
i suppose what underlies this is everyone's ambivalent thoughts about cheating. On the one hand, everyone knows how frustrating it is to be cheated against, but, on the other, it's very difficult in honesty to say that you wouldn't do the same.
It does seem like a weird argument to me - to take "this is cheating and we will punish people to try to stop people doing it" to mean "this is acceptable behaviour because you implicitly accept this penalty as the cost of doing it."
 

baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
It does seem like a weird argument to me - to take "this is cheating and we will punish people to try to stop people doing it" to mean "this is acceptable behaviour because you implicitly accept this penalty as the cost of doing it."

hm, people accept penalties in all walks of life for things they choose to do that they supposedly shouldn't, according to the rules, whether those be moral or legal or whatever. the whole concept of what rules really are/really are for is fascinating
 
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droid

Guest
hm, people accept penalties in all walks of life for things they choose to do that they supposedly shouldn't, according to the rules, whether those be moral or legal or whatever. the whole concept of what rules really are/really are for is fascinating

Norms and rules. We dont say that someone who steals or kills is justified in what they did simply because they were punished - which is the argument that I cant accept.

http://aidwatchers.com/2010/07/rule...-or-more-importantly-did-uruguay-cheat-ghana/
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
whatever your take on this whole debate, i feel i must line up behind Droid in solidarity (i was going spare watching Henry's behaviour in a Birmingham bar that night w some mates, inc a lad whose gramps was from Dundalk) and agree that Ireland could well have made a better fist than the French did of that Group A this summer.

yes, Ireland could well have finished third.
;)
 
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droid

Guest
whatever your take on this whole debate, i feel i must line up behind Droid in solidarity (i was going spare watching Henry's behaviour in a Birmingham bar that night w some mates, inc a lad whose gramps was from Dundalk) and agree that Ireland could well have made a better fist than the French did of that Group A this summer.

yes, Ireland could well have finished third.
;)

lol. Youre barred!
 

scottdisco

rip this joint please
don't you take that tone w me. i'm from England, and therefore know all there is to know about association football!

why you only have to look at - oh, is this thing on? etc etc
:D
 

Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
This whole debate really hinges on whether or not you view the handball as a rule that is ethically normative. For instance, I would definitely consider it ethically wrong to send some sub with less to lose onto the pitch with the instructions to injure and incapacitate a player on the other team. I would also consider it unethical for one team to be juiced up on steroids. But I see a difference between these examples and the handball: each of these are ethically wrong because they create an inequality and therefore an unfairness. Smacking a ball out of the goal with your hand is not only something that either team may do at any time, but it also seems like it'd be fairly hard (and lucky) to get yourself in a position to do it. There is also, as someone has mentioned earlier, an intentionality to it, i.e. an acknowledgement that not only will the penalty be suffered, but that it will be advantageous to your team at that point in time. To say Suarez should not have done that is to say he should've allowed Ghana to win, and within the rules of the game, I cannot see why anyone would do that. I applaud him for his quick thinking, no less because it was still completely witihin Ghana's ability to win.

Look at basketball. The (non-flagrant) "foul" has no ethical implications at all. In fact, in every single game fouls are made for strategic advantage. If the penalty can be advantageous to you and it doesn't create an inequality or break any larger ethical problems, I can't see the issue.
 
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mixed_biscuits

_________________________
But I see a difference between these examples and the handball: each of these are ethically wrong because they create an inequality and therefore an unfairness. Smacking a ball out of the goal with your hand is not only something that either team may do at any time, but it also seems like it'd be fairly hard (and lucky) to get yourself in a position to do it.

Handballing on the line doesn't create an unrepresentative inequality through unequal action (as when one team juices; the other doesn't - deleveling); it creates an unrepresentative equality through unequal action (the better team is more likely to be handballed-against; either team will not have equal opportunity to fist shots off the line - leveling). So I would say they're equally unethical.

Re the aidwatch article, the reason why norms fail in football is because it's a team game and thus not zero-sum in the way that other competitive pursuits can be - sprinting, for example (hence the summary ejection of sprinter cheats, for example). It pays a team (and supporters of that team) to have someone who is good at bending the rules on their books.
 
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Sick Boy

All about pride and egos
Handballing on the line doesn't create an unrepresentative inequality through unequal action (as when one team juices; the other doesn't - deleveling); it creates an unrepresentative equality through unequal action (the better team is more likely to be handballed-against; either team will not have equal opportunity to fist shots off the line - leveling). So I would say they're equally unethical.

But the better team is also more likely to score against the lesser team? And you could say that either team will not have exactly equal opportunities to do anything in any given game?

This is an argument against the element of luck and circumstance in professional football. If the game were played with these ethics in mind, it wouldn't be necessary for teams to play each other at all. You could just statistically calculate wins and losses.
 

mixed_biscuits

_________________________
But the better team is also more likely to score against the lesser team? And you could say that either team will not have exactly equal opportunities to do anything in any given game?

I think I see what you mean. I think your point works if the opportunities to gain an advantage by infringing the rules are equally great for both the defending (inferior) team and the attacking (superior) team - in other words, for every time the defending team fists the ball off the line without the ref seeing, the attacking team can retaliate by diving to win a penalty. This is probably the case in a match considered discretely, but I think there may be problems once a wider context comes into play.

For instance, in the case of a runaway winner to a league meeting a succession of teams fighting hard to stay out of the relegation zone, one would expect unrepresentative (levelled, in this case) results to ensue, as the inferior team stands to gain more by cheating than the superior team does. The superior team would have nothing to gain from extending a 3-0 lead, but the inferior, struggling team would have everything to gain from cheating in order to prevent that lead from becoming any greater. One would thus expect defensive fouls not to be counter-balanced by offensive underhandery.

So, in the context of the standalone match between the championship leader and the struggler, one can say that the struggler has brought about an unfair result. In the context of the struggling team amongst other strugglers, also playing the leader, there may not be comparatively unrepresentative unfairness, as one can expect the other struggling teams to have levelled results through illegal play to the same extent.

Consequently, the bottom half of the league table may be 'fair' (the results are representative of actual comparative strength) but the top half 'unfair' (the results are not representative).
 
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IdleRich

IdleRich
With the Suarez thing I took it to be instinctive rather than premeditated, he hardly had time to weigh up the pros and cons, he just saw it going past and stuck his hand out. Bit annoying to see him celebrating the miss from the sidelines and then being carried on his teammates' shoulders like a hero afterwards.
 
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