Richard Dawkins

[Mr. Tea]

I heard about that too. Isn't the 'argument' something idiotic about how giving more rights to gay people means less rights for straights, or something stupid? The pseudo-logic people use to try and justify their bigotry is just unbelievable. I mean, if you say gay people should be denied rights or persecuted or whatever because it says in your holy book that they're God-forsaken deviants, that's obviously not exactly a watertight argument in a secular context but it does at least have a certain unpleasant internal consistency. It can't really be argued with other than by saying "but your holy book is a man-made document that encodes the prejudices of some tribe in the Middle East a few thousand years ago".

Santorum's latest bit of anti-gay-marriage rhetoric is "what next - polygamy?!?!". Well hang on a sec: where in the world is polygamy prevalent? The more backwards parts of the Muslim world, and Utah. Not exactly havens of gay rights. And wouldn't allowing more people to get married help make marriage stronger, not weaker?

 

[mistersloane]

I'm not ashamed to admit that I learned everything I know about the inherent and terminal dullness of science and scientists from Brian Cox.

You should try Carl Sagan's Cosmos series. He's interminably dull AND a hippy. What a fucking result.

 

[droid]

Thing is, there's fuck all in the bible about homosexuality. The warnings about eating shellfish, or wearing two different types of fabric at the same time are just as, if not more strongly worded and numerous.

See also, Onan - he wasnt a wanker, he pulled out at the last moment. A form of 'natural' contraception that the Church would support I would've thought.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Thing is, there's fuck all in the bible about homosexuality.

You entirely sure about that?

 

[droid]

You entirely sure about that?

Yep, apart from one or two mentions in Romans thats pretty much it.

There was also an interesting series of letters in the Irish Times a few years back questioning the translation of 'abomination', and its frequency of use in the old testament. Pretty much every proscribed activity is an 'abomination'.

 

[droid]

And for context:

"Whatsoever goeth upon the belly, and whatsoever goeth upon all fours, or whatsoever hath many feet, even all creeping things that creep upon the earth, them ye shall not eat; for they are an abomination."

http://bible.cc/leviticus/11-42.htm

So, eating say a... badger (goes on all fours along its belly) is described in exactly the same terms of homosexuality. Note also the correlation in translation - detestable = abomination = disgusting.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Yep, thats pretty much it. That single line.

It's mentioned more than once, from what I can see. And one of those lines quite specifically says that if a man fucks another man, they should both be killed. There's not really a great deal of room for interpretation there.

This wording of it had me in stitches:

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Never have sexual intercourse with a man as with a woman. It is disgusting.

I hope Bibles in 20 years' time say "And a bro shall not bone another bro as if he were a chick, for it is like WAY gross".

 

[Mr. Tea]

Here we are, the jolly old KJV:

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

 

[droid]

They're all translations of the same verse.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Leviticus 18 and 20
Chapters 18 and 20 of Leviticus, which form part of the Holiness code, contain the following verses:
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.[1](Leviticus 18:22 KJV)
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.[2](Leviticus 20:13 KJV)
The two verses have traditionally been interpreted by many Christians (including fundamentalists but not exclusive to) as blanket prohibitions against homosexual acts. [3][4]

 

[droid]

That would also be applied to adultery, mixing threads, eating pork, eating snails, eating shellfish, neighbors complaining about the smell of my burning sacrifice, someone working on the Sabbath, someone cutting the hair around their temples, blaspheming, growing two crops in the same field... all punishable by death.

 

[droid]

So, the point being is that there's fuck all in the bible about homosexuality, and yet it is singled out as sinful, whereas I've never seen the Pope speak out about the abomination of a cotton/polyester mix.

 

[Mr. Tea]

That would also be applied to adultery, mixing threads, eating pork, eating snails, eating shellfish, neighbors complaining about the smell of my burning sacrifice, someone working on the Sabbath, someone cutting the hair around their temples, blaspheming, growing two crops in the same field... all punishable by death.

Exactly. All the more reason not to base your moral code on a collection of myths from the bronze age Middle East. Try telling that to Rick Santorum.

 

[droid]

Or - that the aspects of scripture that people choose to emphasize tells you more about them than the scripture itself.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Or - that the aspects of scripture that people choose to emphasize tells you more about them than the scripture itself.

But where do Santorum's prejudices come from? Did he pick up the Bible as an adult and find that, amazingly, a bunch of values he'd come to hold entirely independently were reflected in Christian scripture?

 

[droid]

No. It's the cumulative effect of generations of selective interpretation and teachings.

One can easily imagine a parallel universe where gayness was ignored by the church, but working on the Sabbath was seen as unnatural.

 

[Mr. Tea]

But we live in this universe, don't we?

So yeah, I accept your point - apart from the bit where it says gays should be put to death, there's fuck all about homosexuality in the Bible.

 

[vimothy]

Surely the Bible is ripe for a modern, BBC-style update.

 

[droid]

But we live in this universe, don't we?

So yeah, I accept your point - apart from the bit where it says gays should be put to death, there's fuck all about homosexuality in the Bible.

:slanted: :slanted: :slanted:

The bible says you should be put to death for the following:

Sexual activities

"And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you." —George Carlin
Adultery (Leviticus 20:10-12, man and woman)
Lying about virginity. Applies to girls who are still in their fathers' homes, who lie about their virginity, and are presented to their husband as a virgin. The accused is guilty until proved innocent. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
The daughter of a priest practicing prostitution (death by fire) (Leviticus 21:9)
Rape of a virgin who is engaged. If she is not engaged you only have to marry her and give her father 50 shekels. No mention is made of the girl’s opinion, and no punishment is specified for raping a single non-virgin female. (Deuteronomy 22:25)
Being the victim of rape, if one is an engaged female virgin and the rape occurs in a city. If it takes place in a field, the victim is spared because nobody would have heard her screams. (Deuteronomy 22:23-27) Presumably, virgins who scream for help inside a city will always be rescued.
Men practicing bestiality. (Both man and animal die). (Leviticus 20:15) [4]
Women practicing bestiality (Both woman and animal die). (Leviticus 20:16) [4]
Having sex with your father’s wife, as distinct from "your mother", as it was common practice for men at the time to have several wives. (both die) (Leviticus 20:20)
Having sex with your daughter in law. (Leviticus 20:30)
Incest. (Leviticus 20:17) [5]
(for men): Sex with a man in the same manner as sex with women. Generally interpreted as male homosexuality. The girls seem to get a free... errrr ...ride on this one. (Leviticus 18:23)
Marrying a woman and her daughter. They are all burnt to death (Leviticus 20:14)
A couple of these demand that the "sinners" be burned to death rather than stoned — which was the more usual form of capital punishment. One can wonder why these crimes in particular merit this especially horrible fate.
[edit] Religious laws

Worshiping idols (Exodus 22:20, Leviticus 20:1-5, Deuteronomy 17:2-7).
Blasphemy (Leviticus 24:14-16,23).
Breaking the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36).
Practicing magic (Exodus 22:18).
Being a medium or spiritualist. (Stoning) (Leviticus 20:27).
Trying to convert people to another religion. (stoning) (Deuteronomy 13:1-11, Deuteronomy 18:20).
Apostasy - If most people in a town come to believe in a different god. (Kill everybody, including animals, and burn the town.) (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)[6]
Giving one of your descents to Molech. Probably refers to human sacrifice, which is not now as commonly practised. (Leviticus 20:2)
Non-priests going near the tabernacle when it is being moved. (Numbers 1:51)
Being a false prophet. (Deuteronomy 13:5, Deuteronomy 18:20, Zechariah 13:2-3)
[edit] Parents and Children.

Striking your parents (Exodus 21:15).
Cursing your parents (Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9).
Being a stubborn and rebellious son. And being a profligate and a drunkard. (stoning) (Quite a few of us might have a problem with this one)(Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
[edit] Violent and legal crimes

Murder. However if a slave is beaten to death the owner is “punished” — not necessarily killed. If the slave survives the beating then there is no punishment. This is part of a wide range of slavery laws in the Old and New Testament. (Genesis 9:6, Exodus 21:12, Numbers 35:16-21)
Kidnapping and selling a man. This is really a law against making an Israelite a slave against his will, as other laws happily allow the "stealing of men" to make slaves. (Exodus 21:16).
Perjury (in certain cases) (Deuteronomy 19:15-21).
Deuteronomy 19:20 explicitly identifies that the purpose of this is deterrence. "The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing (malicious and false testimony by one man against another) be done among you." Presumably all the other death penalties are assumed to be for deterrence as well.
Ignoring the verdict of a judge – (or a priest!) (Deuteronomy 17:8-13).
Not penning up a known dangerous bull, if the bull subsequently kills a man or a woman. Both the animal and the reckless owner of the dangerous bull are to be put to death. (Exodus 21:29)
[edit]Things that don’t go anywhere else.

Living in a city that failed to surrender to the Israelites. (Kill all the men, make the women and children slaves.) (Deuteronomy 20:12-14)
[edit] Possible grounds for execution.

The following carry the punishment of being "cut off from his people". Some people seem to feel that this is the same as the death penalty, although the ancient Israelites may simply have interpreted it as exile.
A male who is not circumcised. (Genesis 17:14)
Eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened Bread. (Exodus 12:15)
Manufacturing anointing oil. (Exodus 30:33
Engaging in ritual animal sacrifices other than at the temple. (Leviticus 17:1-9)
Sexual activity with a woman who is menstruating: (Leviticus 20:18)
Consuming blood: This would presumably include eating rare meat and black pudding. Also see above. (Leviticus 17:10).
Eating peace offerings while ritually unclean: (Leviticus 7:20)
Waiting too long before consuming sacrifices: (Leviticus 19:5-8)
Going to the temple in an unclean state: (Numbers 19:13)

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Actions_which_demand_the_death_penalty_in_the_Old_Testament

So the point once again is simple. Why single out homosexuality from that list, especially considering some of the other crimes are mentioned more often?

Of course, you can interpret this as some kind of defense of Christianity as you seem to have decided to. I am renowned for my piety after all.

 

[Mr. Tea]

:slanted: :slanted: :slanted:

The bible says you should be put to death for the following:



So the point once again is simple. Why single out homosexuality from that list, especially considering some of the other crimes are mentioned more often?

Of course, you can interpret this as some kind of defense of Christianity as you seem to have decided to. I am renowned for my piety after all.

Oh come on, don't put words in my mouth. Yes, I'm well aware there is a bunch of obscure laws in the OT that are largely ignored these days. But that's not the same thing as there being "fuck all" about homosexuality. Why people have chosen to obsess on that topic rather than the other things, I don't know - but organised religions have always been pretty funny about sex, and the anti-gay thing is consistent with the Catholic church's anti-contraception stance. I dunno where Judaism stands on the issue, but the Haredim at least are ferociously keen on reproduction.