Richard Dawkins

vimothy

yurp
I'm not really asking about decisions or processes. I'm asking about the end product.

Some people on the TV seem to think that smoking is bad for your health. Other people on the TV think that printing money causes inflation. Other people are convinced that Jesus died for our sins.

How should we evaluate these claims?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I'm not really asking about decisions or processes. I'm asking about the end product.

Some people on the TV seem to think that smoking is bad for your health. Other people on the TV think that printing money causes inflation. Other people are convinced that Jesus died for our sins.

How should we evaluate these claims?

Well the first could be, and has been, demonstrated using controlled clinical studies. The second is more difficult to test but you could put an argument together by looking at what's happened to inflation in countries that have printed money; if you had a large enough data set and performed a rigorous analysis I think you would be able to say there was good evidence either for it or against. The third not only refers to an event which, if happened at all happened 2,000 years ago, but deals with 'sin', which is a moral and spiritual concept that has no meaning in a scientific context. How you evaluate it depends on your personal religious beliefs (or lack of them).
 

vimothy

yurp
In my view, modernity is all about the preeminence of scientific knowledge. There are many positives that we can take from this, of course, and you pointed to some of them earlier in the thread (IIRC).

On the other hand, just one can have too much of a good thing, the scientific project can be taken too far. We don't want to limit what's real to only those things that can be measured and quantified, and it seems like this could be a danger if we expect all of our knowledge to replicate scientific standards.
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
But, at the risk of going back to the beginning, I think that if you want your religion to be more than a personal thing then you need something that you can show to other people that might convince them. Especially if you want it to have a pre-eminient position in society. This is why Christianity has miracle stories isn't it? They constitute proof - although that leaves aside the debate about whether proof makes faith unnecessary.
Anyway, let's suppose we have "science" hard measurable facts and a world that recognises that. Outside that world we have... something else; religion, spirituality etc The question I'd like to know the answer to is how you evaluate those religions, how do you pick one and how do you argue for it as more real than others?
I'm particularly interested in the pragmatic bits of this - I have no problem in anybody practising their own personal faith as long as it doesn't affect me or others who don't follow that faith - but what can Christianity (say) use to argue for its exalted place in UK culture other than tradition?
I think there must be something - it's not the case that science means hard verifiable facts and the other world means anything goes, there is obviously something between these two extremes but what is is?

"We don't want to limit what's real to only those things that can be measured and quantified, and it seems like this could be a danger if we expect all of our knowledge to replicate scientific standards."
How do we extend it beyond those limits without accepting absolutely anything at all is what I'm asking.
 

vimothy

yurp
But we couldn't be human and operate within those limits either.

So a natural question is: what happens in practice?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
"But we couldn't be human and operate within those limits either.
So a natural question is: what happens in practice?"
I agree with the first bit. But what happens at the moment, in this country is... not satisfactory I'd say. At the moment we have a church that is the official church by dint of being established here for longer - then we have other religions which are authenticated or at least given an aura of respectability by their age, then less mainstream cults etc There ought to be a better reason for following a religion than because it's what your parents did but that is effectively what happens in practice.
Going back to that GK Chesterton quote

"When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."
I think there is some truth in it, certainly the second part rings kinda true, for religious types at least, but apart from the de facto obviousness of God being the one true god I don't see how it is any more valid than if it began "When people stop believing in Allah...".
So, moving away from what happens in practice, what would be a better way of differentiating Christianity from the famous Flying-Spaghetti-Monsterism?
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
I think there is some truth in it, certainly the second part rings kinda true, for religious types at least, but apart from the de facto obviousness of God being the one true god I don't see how it is any more valid than if it began "When people stop believing in Allah...".

I should think (though I could be wrong) that GKC meant 'God' in the generic sense here - but in any case, Yahweh, God and Allah are all nominally the same deity, aren't they?
 

IdleRich

IdleRich
Yeah, they are, but that's not really the point. Insert a different deity there if it makes more sense.
But, more succinctly, if living within the limits of what you can touch, taste and feel is gonna make you inhuman (not to say bored) but an uncritical approach to various spiritualities (including religions) is going to drive you mad then how do you steer between these extremes?
You might say "that is the question that one spends one's life trying to answer" but I guess I'm asking something a bit shallower than that.
 
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baboon2004

Darned cockwombles.
Read Siddhartha!

It's pretty good. Faiths without paternalistic God figures make a lot more sense to me from a personal point of view.
 

you

Well-known member
I didn't realise that was a round to download. I gave my copy away of that one so I can D/L my favourite bits and read it on my phone now, hurrah.

On your fucking telephone?


@ MS - Yeah, Urbs slowly release they shit on pdf, seems sensible as some of the early editions are sold out and out of print. I really like that essay.

@ BT - I think reading is different from a film though right, I love the book beautiful, but the urbanomic editions are not exactly luxurious coffee table tomes, I don't think too much of the ontological revelation is lost.

ALSO - adding a little bit of kindling, you ought to consider the Sloterdijkian argument that can be summed up in a forum friendly : "so long as we have navels there will be a god"
 

Mr. Tea

Let's Talk About Ceps
ALSO - adding a little bit of kindling, you ought to consider the Sloterdijkian argument that can be summed up in a forum friendly : "so long as we have navels there will be a god"

All the more reason to develop a way of growing babies in labs. The world's vaginas will breathe a sigh of relief - big brains are all well and good but they make for hella big heads.
 

you

Well-known member
All the more reason to develop a way of growing babies in labs. The world's vaginas will breathe a sigh of relief - big brains are all well and good but they make for hella big heads.

Hhahah - I am an inferior micro-cephalous dunce! Please elaborate upon this technological procreation and it's effects upon vaginal respiration....

- Tea, read less burroughs...
 
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