do you agree or not, with the gist of the Wire article?
the Afro-American Roots of Kraftwerk
- Thread starter zhao
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do you agree or not, with the gist of the Wire article?
Martin D
Well-known member
I think it's a poorly researched article but when Kraftwerk themselves have stated more than once that they ARE influenced by black music, they've told me themselves that they where but I've also heard how Mad Mike and Shake came to Kraftwerk via Mojo so the story is more interesting than the reductionist argument you seem to want to have with me!
Leo
Well-known member
THIS made me LOL: the thought of mad max reading mojo magazine (as opposed, of course, to listening to electrifying mojo)
So what you are essentially saying, Martin, is that the story is complex, so therefore we should not examine the ways narrative may have been skewed toward Eurocentricity, we should not reevaluate the possible marginalization of major contributions made by certain groups by a racist industry, or at least not in populist, digestible ways.
that about sums it up?
that about sums it up?
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Martin D
Well-known member
Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all, that's simply your own projection to suit your own ends. How do you make these massive leaps over just two sentences or are you just trolling?
Leo
Well-known member
Generally agree with Zhao and whoever that Kraftwerk were influenced by black music such as James Brown etc., but am I right in saying that you're referring more to the rhythmic foundations of their music?..the funkiness in it.... Because in terms of the actual sounds, who else was using electronics the way they were, before?
Like, listen to the rising synth arpeggios in 'hall of mirrors', what american stuff was inspiring that, u know?? because it's things like that that made their music sound so alien and new, not just the rhythms. - Again, not trying to trivialise the american influence, or the aspects of their sound that definitely were inspired by black music, just saying there were totally new things they were adding to it too afaik. (feel like i have to be extremely careful in how im saying this cos from reading the above zhao seems like a touchy guy lol)
Were there any african-american musicians making electronic music before Kraftwerk..? Not saying there wasn't, I'd be very interested to hear it.. I guess u could point to the use of synthesisers in p-funk or something, i dunno.
Like, listen to the rising synth arpeggios in 'hall of mirrors', what american stuff was inspiring that, u know?? because it's things like that that made their music sound so alien and new, not just the rhythms. - Again, not trying to trivialise the american influence, or the aspects of their sound that definitely were inspired by black music, just saying there were totally new things they were adding to it too afaik. (feel like i have to be extremely careful in how im saying this cos from reading the above zhao seems like a touchy guy lol)
Were there any african-american musicians making electronic music before Kraftwerk..? Not saying there wasn't, I'd be very interested to hear it.. I guess u could point to the use of synthesisers in p-funk or something, i dunno.
Martin D
Well-known member
I think it depends which period you're talking about.
crackerjack
Well-known member
That's just fucking mad. Bauhaus were a straight-up rock band who made a couple of dubby tracks.
firefinga
Well-known member
what is this trhead really about?
Errr what's this thread really about?
"Whitey can't dance" = "positive" racism that says all innovative music ever stemming from black folks?
Downplay the influential role of Kraftwerk in the origins of techno as a whole?
Rewriting (musical) history according to one's idiosyncrasies?
Errr what's this thread really about?
"Whitey can't dance" = "positive" racism that says all innovative music ever stemming from black folks?
Downplay the influential role of Kraftwerk in the origins of techno as a whole?
Rewriting (musical) history according to one's idiosyncrasies?
Sun Ra 1978
Juan Atkins 1978
https://soundcloud.com/cassdetroit/methane-sea-prelude
Salsoul Disco 1980
Suicide 1976
crackerjack
Well-known member
This was not a leap at all. This is basically what you said: article is poorly researched, zhao's tweet-like position is reductionist, and the real history is more complex --- so, effectively, these people should just shut the hell up.
no?
But if this is not what you are saying, then what ARE you saying exactly, Martin?
didn't say they do. But they are examples of African American and American electronic music at the same time.
and of course Sun Ra used electronics as early as the 1950s.
But this is not the main thrust of this re-evaluation, which is the Funk, Disco, Motown, etc. roots of Kraftwerk. That Kraftwerk should be understood as exactly making AfroAmerican music in a robotic, un-AfroAmerican way; that they should be seen as part of a lineage of innovators, and not THE innovator from whom techno exclusively comes.
that aint juan atkins its richard davies but thanks for the links all good shit
but yeah none of it predates kraftwerk or even 'hall of mirrors' (77) except suicide who are white guys as well lol
Trillhouse
Well-known member
Yet you can't site one example of electronic music from Funk, Soul, Disco, etc that predates and influenced Kraftwerk in a way to back up such a claim.
Martin D
Well-known member
That you can't answer your argument by being angry or in two paragraphs.
Out of interest, do you think you exploit afro-america music/imagery and people to promote yourself?
rubberdingyrapids
Well-known member
i should prob read that article first, but the problem i have with this sort of argument is that it almost always just ends up being something like a) all music is black music b) black people must not like white music (and if they do, then of course, there must be black roots in that music)
me personally, i can barely hear these black roots, at least not until 80s kraftwerk, so it is then an argument about something more interesting to me at this point in my life, why just because something has 'roots' in something else, that it has to be firmly abridged to that earlier thing. not saying to ignore what kraftwerk may have been listening to, but to actually LISTEN, and see that despite those apparent roots, that what they did doesnt really follow all that easily on from it.
me personally, i can barely hear these black roots, at least not until 80s kraftwerk, so it is then an argument about something more interesting to me at this point in my life, why just because something has 'roots' in something else, that it has to be firmly abridged to that earlier thing. not saying to ignore what kraftwerk may have been listening to, but to actually LISTEN, and see that despite those apparent roots, that what they did doesnt really follow all that easily on from it.
well it was kind of implied by the fact u were replying to my request tho, no?
i agree with that........ but the 'un-afro-american way' they did it sounded pretty mental didn't it lol... what makes techno techno? a big part of it is the obsession with technology and electronics, alien sounds, the future, robots, dehumanisation etc.... and kraftwerk are a massive part of that development