VICE magazine's G. MacInnes in The American Conservative

[zhao]

Blue State America needs to lose the attitude that those stupid rednecks in the South didn't know what they were voting for when they reelected Bush & Co, that they were unwitting accomplices who were merely manipulated by terrorism fears, etc.

too right. it's this kind of self satisfied liberal sentiment that is making us lose (by "us" I assume most are liberals here). while we were busy congratulating ourselves on how cultured we were, the "dumb" fundamentalist christians had their shit together and won. so GWB is "stupid" is he? well obviously he's smarter than whoever says that because he's making himself and his buddies richer at the expense of the world.

 

[dominic]

but if you are going to dismiss something on these grounds you might as well dismiss A LOT of other things in western culture too. such as Mozart. or Davinci. (who were able to practice their art because of their privilege, who merely provided services to the rich and powerful)

what you call "these grounds" is not blissblogger's premise

i.e., he's not taking issue w/ privileged people making art or writing -- that'd be the height of hypocrisy as blissblogger, by my understanding, rec'd a first-rate education

rather, he's taking issue w/ how certain people make use of their privilege, i.e., what they write, the attitudes and opinions they propagate

]did you read my recount of the beginnings of Vice a few posts up? they didn't start it on no trust fund that's for damn sure.

only if you define privilege very narrowly to mean being the beneficiary of a trust fund would the people behind vice magazine not count as privileged

they're white, they're male, they're cosmopolitan

they went to good schools

they never had to work in factories, work as janitors, repair cars, butcher meat

never had to join the army or guard prisons

they've never been on the dole

they have no problems hailing down cabs

(btw mozart and davinci were privileged precisely in the sense that they were trained and educated by parents/benefactors and received the patronage later on in life of the wealthy and powerful -- M and D certainly were not the equivalent of modern-day trust-funders)

and let's just say that a good percentage of white people are privileged as against the rest of the world -- i.e., they have pretty cushy lives and quite literally "nine lives" worth of opportunities to make use of or piss away

which isn't to deny that many of us piss away opportunity or don't like the opportunities we have in hand -- for the complex of reasons that dubquixote hinted at

i.e., we're privileged as compared with the rest of the world, seemingly, and yet we're deeply frustrated and bored and depressed, etc

 

[dominic]

so GWB is "stupid" is he? well obviously he's smarter than whoever says that because he's making himself and his buddies richer at the expense of the world.

which means he's doing so at the expense of the people in middle america who supported him

therefore they are rather stupid -- correct?

or else they've concluded that america's economic health will decline and their own prospects deteriorate regardless of which party is in power -- and therefore voted strictly to preserve their cultural and social position

 

[zhao]

J-Live _ Satisfied

Lights, camera, tragedy, comedy, romance
You better dance from your fighting stance
Or you'll never have a fighting chance In the rat race
Where the referee's son started way in advance
But still you livin' the American Dream
Silk PJ's, sheets and down pillows
Who the fuck would wanna wake up?
You got it good like hot sex after the break up
Your four car garage it's just more space to take up
You even bought your mom a new whip scrap the jalopy
Thousand dollar habit, million dollar hobby
You a success story everybody wanna copy
But few work for it, most get jerked for it
If you think that you could ignore it, you're ig-norant
A fat wallet still never made a man free
They say to eat good, yo, you gotta swallow your pride
But dead that game plan, I'm not satisfied

[Chorus]
The poor get worked, the rich get richer
The world gets worse, do you get the picture?
The poor gets dead, the rich get depressed
The ugly get mad, the pretty get stressed
The ugly get violent, the pretty get gone
The old get stiff, the young get stepped on
Whoever told you that it was all good lied
So throw your fists up if you not satisfied

Are you satisfied?
I'm not satisfied

Hey yo, the air's still stale
The anthrax got my Ole Earth wearin' a mask and gloves to get a meal
I know a older guy that lost twelve close peeps on 9-1-1
While you kickin' up punchlines and puns
Man fuck that shit, this is serious biz
By the time Bush is done, you won't know what time it is
If it's war time or jail time, time for promises
And time to figure out where the enemy is
The same devils that you used to love to hate
They got you so gassed and shook now, you scared to debate
The same ones that traded books for guns
Smuggled drugs for funds
And had fun lettin' off forty-one
But now it's all about NYPD caps
And Pentagon bumper stickers
But yo, you still a nigga
It ain't right them cops and them firemen died
The shit is real tragic, but it damn sure ain't magic
It won't make the brutality disappear
It won't pull equality from behind your ear
It won't make a difference in a two-party country
If the president cheats, to win another four years
Now don't get me wrong, there's no place I'd rather be
The grass ain't greener on the other genocide
But tell Huey Freeman don't forget to cut the lawn And uproot the weeds
Cuz I'm not satisfied

[Chorus]

Yo, poison pushers making paper off of pipe dreams
They turned hip-hop to a get-rich-quick scheme
The rich minorities control the gov'ment
But they would have you believe we on the same team
So where you stand, huh?
What do you stand for?
Sit your ass down if you don't know the answer
Serious as cancer, this jam demands your undivided attention
Even on the dance floor
Grab the bull by the horns, the bucks by the antlers
Get yours, what're you sweatin' the next man for?
Get down, feel good to this, let it ride
But until we all free, I'll never be satisfied

[Chorus] - Repeat 2x

 

[D84]

After reading the comments in the Hate Is a Strong Word thread in the Music forum, I thought I'd share this great piece pf Vice mag bashing I found the other day:

FUCK VICE:
http://ruthlessreviews.com/rants/schultz/fuckvice.html

 

[Buick6]

also interested in this ideology of humour as excusing everything vs these mythical 'humourless feminists/radicals/etc' ... A/ cos most of the feminists, radicals etc i've ever known have been very witty and very merry sorts, and b/ because it's a very specific kind of right-to-humour that's defended here, a humour rooted in Other-directed aggression, stereotype, demeaning, vindictiveness etc. ie. jokes about Irishmen being thick. immigrants, gays etc. it's obvious when you'd watch say Andrew Dice Clay performing to a crowd of bellowing and braying male 'ugly americans' that what you were witnessing wasn't really about laughter or humour, but some kind of ritual exorcism of anxieties and projected self-loathings...

Yeah but so too is listening to the Smiths and My Bloody Valentine. Besides Morrissey is one of the funniest men in English rock ever, shame his fans don't 'get it'.

And Andrew Dice Clay can be very fucken funny it's amazing that being 'rude' as a comedian is considered so 'transgressive', just like the Eddie Murphy or Devine or Richard Pryor or Three Stooges and Warners Brothers cartoons, or Monty Python and SouthPark. Part of the problem with 'radicals' these days is that they are odd-ball dickheads who are not funny - wit and being truly 'funny' are different talents - 'wit' is to do with maipulating power and is inherently political, where being 'funny' is defusing power.

Part of the issue with 'Vice' is that it's a *free* magazine that has made it's publishers rich - and despite the publishers outspoken views, I figger there's just a tinge of repressed ENVY that others haven't been able to do the same.

I kinda like 'Arthur' magazine myself, and part of the failure about this thread is everyone's given so much 'publicity' to 'Vice' and totally neglected a more worthy, elightening, relevant, informed and cutting-edge *free* publication. Poor effort comrades.

 

[D84]

I kinda like 'Arthur' magazine myself, and part of the failure about this thread is everyone's given so much 'publicity' to 'Vice' and totally neglected a more worthy, elightening, relevant, informed and cutting-edge *free* publication. Poor effort comrades.

I tried to get a couple of issues of this from Midheaven mail-order earlier in the year for the Jello Biafra and JG Ballard interviews (I'd love to see Vice put them on their covers) but they didn't have any copies left.

Is it available anywhere outside on San Fransisco or Sydney, Australia in particular?

Vice on the other hand is everywhere...

 

[zhao]

I didn't think anything of Arthur until I went to the festival (which was a dissapointment, with the exception of CIRCLE, whose 30 minute set alone was worth the $90 for the 2 days) the issue they gave away had this cool interview with Alan Bishop of Sublime frequencies and Sun City Girls, and some other well worth reading articles.

still love Vice though.

let's turn up the heat on the debate a little:

what did people think of THIS little article?

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v12n5/htdocs/hey.php

 

[D84]

let's turn up the heat on the debate a little:

what did people think of THIS little article?

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v12n5/htdocs/hey.php

That's a good article.

But what keeps it from me saying that it's a great article is that it doesn't try to interpret the facts. Sure, as the writer says the enemy and slavery come in all colours but as the 1st comment to the article on that page says, he neglects the simple fact, "slavery was not a black white thing it was a rich poor thing". It's a small point but to me it's a very important one. Is Jim Goad trying to suggest that because slavery isn't racist America isn't?

I've already stated my some of my gripes with the magazine. I think it's great that it sets out to be controversial and that it does provoke thought/discussion (I argue about the mag's value with my friends).

Nonetheless this criticism in the Ruthless Reviews article I posted above is spot on:

7) A long time ago, 'subversive' or (sigh) ‘edgy’ publications were political; defining themselves against THE MAN. I mean EVERYONE from hippies to greasers to punks to you-name-it, any subculture worth its salt was at least paying lip service to individuality. But the whole cult of the hipster has done away with this, in favor of openly embracing popularity, fashion, and elitism for its own sake (rather than being elite because of commitment to certain ideals). Again, cokehead wall-street day-traders with trucker hats and far less money. Unless they have a trust fund. Which half of them do. And nowhere is this trend more clear than (sigh) Vice Magazine.​

 

[joanofarctan]

This thread now has more words in it than an average Vice issue.

What's all this talk about?

I don't know. Didn't bother reading most of it. But i'll leave a territorial piss-stain here just in case others do.

Vice is still one of the only magazines i'll bother flicking through.

I'm really disappointed with the London issues since they started it up. Not enough topics (grime, grime, grime), not enough quality contributors, not enough London. All the good articles still seem to lie stateside.

Andy, sort it out. If it wasn't for Piers' words, Bennett's piece and Jamie's photos, Vice London would stink so bad even i wouldn't pick it up. I'd just get the US version instead.

I can see why the readership gets hate. I've been down the Old Blue Last a bunch of times and the crowd is a pretty boring hoxditch cross-section. I assume some of them are dumb enough to show up just due to the Vice affiliation. How gay is that?

 

[Andy Capper]

whingey whinge whiners whinging

for the millionth time, it's not "THE LONDON VICE", it's the European / UK Vice and the content reflects that.

and all this stuff about people from Vice not having shit jobs or being on the dole? Well when you all buy the new edition of the Vice Guide To Sex And Drugs And Rock N Roll (out in all good bookshops in February ish) you will all read the truth.

Also..
"grime grime grime"? where? when? how? only boring hoxditch people think that

Which bennett article? Nathan or William?

Look at the new one...

http://www.viceland.com/index_uk.php

Tell me there's not some humdingers in there..

 

[owen]

in the sense of 'ew'.

 

[zhao]

as the writer says the enemy and slavery come in all colours but as the 1st comment to the article on that page says, he neglects the simple fact, "slavery was not a black white thing it was a rich poor thing". It's a small point but to me it's a very important one. Is Jim Goad trying to suggest that because slavery isn't racist America isn't?

7) A long time ago, 'subversive' or (sigh) ‘edgy’ publications were political; defining themselves against THE MAN. I mean EVERYONE from hippies to greasers to punks to you-name-it, any subculture worth its salt was at least paying lip service to individuality. But the whole cult of the hipster has done away with this, in favor of openly embracing popularity, fashion, and elitism for its own sake (rather than being elite because of commitment to certain ideals). Again, cokehead wall-street day-traders with trucker hats and far less money. Unless they have a trust fund. Which half of them do. And nowhere is this trend more clear than (sigh) Vice Magazine.​

maybe I'm not understanding what you said correctly... but that is PRECISELY the main thrust of Jim Goad's argument: that America's real divide, with all the injustice it entails, is along lines of Class, not Race.

about the second part of what you said... I have to think about this more but it seems to me, even though I did not experience the 60's first hand, that a part of western "counter culture" has always been about priveledged kids play-rebelling against a system which gives them the luxury to rebel. that it's always been about "popularity, fashion, and elitism". Provided I'm referring more to, say, people that hung out at the Roxy in LA in the 60s than the Situationists or the Frankfurters...

 

[petergunn]

i like jim goad, i don't like Vice... i just find it kinda silly... being on cocaine will never be a revolutionary stance... it's funny to read back issues of Vice and see them plug all this shit they make fun of now...

 

[zhao]

i like jim goad, i don't like Vice... i just find it kinda silly... being on cocaine will never be a revolutionary stance... it's funny to read back issues of Vice and see them plug all this shit they make fun of now...

somewhere along the line hedonism became confused with rebellion, and excess somehow is mistaken for revolution. goes along nicely with "popularity, fashion, and elitism" and what I was saying 2 replies up. who's to blame? lord Byron? the Marquis? Andre Breton?

 

[tryptych]

Isn't it not that hedonism became confused with rebellion, but rather consumerism became regarded as a method of rebellion (instigated by culture generating corporations).

So we've been sucessfully sold back the idea that the act of rebelling can be done by purchasing, making consumer choices. Whether that be the music you listen to, the clothes you wear, or the drugs you take.

 

[john eden]

So we've been sucessfully sold back the idea that the act of rebelling can be done by purchasing, making consumer choices. Whether that be the music you listen to, the clothes you wear, or the drugs you take.

That's been the case since at least the 60s, though.

In fact that's what's been happening since the creation of "the teenager" after WW2.

edit - it's only a magazine, though - what do people expect? There'll be another one along in a minute...

 

[tryptych]

That's been the case since at least the 60s, though.

In fact that's what's been happening since the creation of "the teenager" after WW2.

Of course it's been happening since the 60s - the movement has its roots in ideas of self-development - but in the 80s-90s things seem to have picked up the pace with more and more companies trying to convince us they can sell "cool".

I'm probably not describing this very well, but if you're interested the book "Commodify your Dissent" ed by Thomas Frank and Matt Weiland is full of essays on every aspect of these changes.

 

[john eden]

Ok, smart. To be honest I'm less interested in this subcultural rebellion stuff these days, probably because I am getting too old, but also because it seems to me that it can only ever appeal to twentysomethings and is therefore hugely limited.

It's all about OAPs as the vanguard of the revolution round my way. Old ladies giving property developers an ear bashing - awesome stuff!

 

[Andy Capper]

"So we've been sucessfully sold back the idea that the act of rebelling can be done by purchasing, making consumer choices. Whether that be the music you listen to, the clothes you wear, or the drugs you take."


Who is "WE"? Sounds like something Penny Rimbaud would say half way through a bottle of wine. He's 65. Spackboy aren't you a bit young to be making tired old generalisations like this?

Nobody falls for this first year political science debate society chit chat any more.