UK EU Referendum Thoughts

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Woebot

Well-known member
scary shit:

"An ORB poll for The Daily Telegraph found that without taking people’s likelihood to vote into account, the campaigns are virtually tied, with remain on 47 per cent and leave on 48 per cent. When the likelihood to vote is considered, however, the leave campaign is on 52 per cent, with remain on 44 per cent."

i know that this is a telegraph poll but my inclination was that remain argument was doing better. seems i was quite wrong. would be hugely alarming to be dragged into isolation and financial chaos.
 

john eden

male pale and stale
scary shit:

"An ORB poll for The Daily Telegraph found that without taking people’s likelihood to vote into account, the campaigns are virtually tied, with remain on 47 per cent and leave on 48 per cent. When the likelihood to vote is considered, however, the leave campaign is on 52 per cent, with remain on 44 per cent."

i know that this is a telegraph poll but my inclination was that remain argument was doing better. seems i was quite wrong. would be hugely alarming to be dragged into isolation and financial chaos.

The remain vote (and likelihood to vote) will increase as we approach polling day though. There's still a load of project fear stuff to come I reckon.

Your UKIPs lot have covered the "common sense" angle pretty well (on their terms, which are horrid, of course). But this will be chipped away with some factoids about how leaving the EU will hurt YOU AND YOUR FAMILY.
 

Slothrop

Tight but Polite
Generally for "in" here. Not least for the selfish reason that I work in an industry (tech) which is largely dependent on EU workers to keep going.

About the most compelling argument that I've heard for "out" is from my partner, who (full disclosure) is a European specialist in the Civil Service. It basically goes:
* post Brexit, the UK government is still going to want free trade agreements with the EU
* those are going to come with a lot of strings attached, probably including free movement of people and the UK having to implement a lot of EU directives anyway, the difference being that we'll no longer be a major force in deciding what those directives are
* the main impact of UK influence on the EU is dragging it to the right and away from regulation (guess who was the only EU Council vote against the Working Times Directive, for instance...)
* hence by leaving we're actually increasing the likelihood of the EU forcing nasty inconvenient lefty / tree-hugging legislation on us.
 

vimothy

yurp
There's a nice summary of the EU ideal versus present reality in Ian Buruma's recent article in the New York Review of Books:

When I arrived in Brussels in the fall of 2015, the sense of crisis was palpable. And this was before armored vehicles appeared in the streets in a rather futile show of strength after the killings in Paris. Not long ago, EU officials and their boosters in the media tended to speak triumphantly of “Europe” as a beacon of peace, freedom, and democracy, a model for the rest of world. The rhetoric was now distinctly downbeat.

I attended a dinner party in an elegant apartment on the Boulevard Winston Churchill. My fellow guests were all connected to the EU in one capacity or another. One spoke openly about the possibility of the euro crashing. Another mentioned the increasingly bad image of the European Commission, as an undemocratic, semi-authoritarian body. Parts of it should probably be dismantled, he suggested. At an EU conference held in one of those magnificent palaces left behind by the Belgian Empire, the Dutch vice-president of the European Commission, Frans Timmermans, warned that if Europe didn’t solve the refugee crisis soon, the EU could easily fall apart.

At a lavish banquet following yet another EU conference in the same gilded palace, I listened to a speech by Étienne Davignon. If anyone personifies the grand European “project,” it is Davignon. This aristocratic Belgian businessman, banker, diplomat, former commissioner, and now president of a think tank called Friends of Europe operates precisely where Belgian and EU elites overlap: on the summit of big money and lofty ideals. Davignon is, in a sense, the unofficial king of Brussels. In the past, he could be counted on to hold forth about the glories of a united Europe. Now he struck a more defensive note; he was sick and tired, he said, of European despondency: “We have lost pride in what we have done.”

It sounded to me as though Brussels triumphalism was turning into a lament. In a way, this was refreshing. Many observers have described the dangers faced by Europe, not least George Soros in these pages. One of the most cogent thinkers about the EU is Luuk van Middelaar, a historian educated in Holland and France, and now based in Brussels. His articles frequently appear in France, as well as his native Holland. As a former member of the cabinet of the Belgian Herman Van Rompuy, the first president of the European Council, van Middelaar knows the EU from the inside out. He sees the problem of Europe mainly as a political crisis.

In the beginning, the conception of European unity, first as the Coal and Steel Community of six nations, and then as the European Economic Community, was deliberately apolitical, or in van Middelaar’s words, a “dedramatisation of European politics.” The distant goal of technocratic founding fathers, such as Robert Schuman and Jean Monnet, might have been a United States of Europe, but peaceful relations between the European nations, which had just emerged from a catastrophic war, needed to be secured first by pooling such economic resources as coal and steel. European institutions were constructed to transcend national politics. Peace and prosperity would come from economic cooperation and negotiation. Consensus would be reached by responsible leaders out of public sight.

The founding fathers were, however, more than dry technocrats. There was a moral, even quasi-religious dimension to the postwar European ideal, a whiff of the Holy Roman Empire; most of the leading figures in the unification of Europe—Konrad Adenauer, Schuman, Alcide De Gaspari, Paul-Henri Spaak—were Roman Catholics.

The French intellectual Julien Benda was not. But he still had a vision. “Europe,” he wrote in a fascinating essay on European unification, published in 1933, “won’t be the result of a simple economic, or political transformation. It will not really exist without adopting a system of moral and aesthetic values, the exaltation of a certain way of thinking and feeling….” But Benda also believed that the idea of Europe should remain utterly rational, abstract, devoid of any national or tribal sentiments. And French, in his view the most rational language, should be the common means of pan-European communication. It is this rationalist, abstract, deliberately deracinated quality, exemplified by the main EU buildings in Brussels, that would prove to be an obstacle once it became necessary to claim the loyalty of the citizens in twenty-eight different nation-states.

The flaws in the founding fathers’ construction, as van Middelaar sees it, became evident once Britain joined in 1973, and even more so after the end of the cold war in the early 1990s. Problems related to climate change, security, immigration, and a common currency demand political solutions. Bureaucratic tinkering, financial planning, and institution-building are no longer enough. To play a part commensurate with its economic power, Europe needs common policies that are democratically legitimate.
 

Leo

Well-known member
does anyone care about obamas speech? saw one guardian column that made it seem like a big deal in crushing some key leave arguments.
 

Woebot

Well-known member
does anyone care about obamas speech? saw one guardian column that made it seem like a big deal in crushing some key leave arguments.

the first remarks about america having the right to intervene given the american lives lost in WW2 was crass in the extreme. putin could make the same argument.

his advisors must be watching the news though and gauging the reaction because the more recent tv speech was much more effective. he made a big play of america not being isolationist - of being involved in NATO and G7 - which scotches boris's latest argument that the US would never be part of a body like the EU.

in all he has only just about done more good for the remain cause than damage.

it's still all horribly close to call. i hope we stay in most days if only because if we leave the next 3-4 years could be extremely rough out - and i'm trying to bring up children right now (life couldn't be more difficult or expensive)
 

droid

Well-known member
Boris' argument that Obama has a grudge against the UK due to his grandfathers torture in Kenya, (other than being demented) is an intriguing moral reversal and bizarre official acknowledgment of Britain's appalling conduct during the Mau Mau rebellion.
 

trza

Well-known member
I don't follow uk politics, am I supposed to develop an emotional bond with one side or another and treat them like a family member or favorite sports team and defend them to the death?
 

droid

Well-known member
I think the default attitude is disdain, contempt, resignation and muted support of your favoured candidates/party in the vague hope they wont live down to expectations. Probably no different from most of the US, only there is a higher % of badge wearing idiots there to give a false impression.
 
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john eden

male pale and stale
so are you changing our line, eden?

Because of Mason? Nope.

Still mildly for brexit here. Be good if the arms dealers fuck off AND house prices fall, what's not to like?

I can see what he's saying but it's now or never really.
 

Woebot

Well-known member
thanks john i read that

and yes STOP BORIS. boris is an attention-seeking infant. this i know from many personal anecdotes AND from my own experience encountering him.

osbourne is capable of making unpopular decisions - and as the left forgets - that surely cuts both ways. can you imagine boris saying no to any global interest?
 
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