UK EU Referendum Thoughts

[droid]

Sure, but generally more of a US thing.

 

[droid]

Far right terrorist murder of a left wing politician. This is a first isnt it?

 

[rubberdingyrapids]

has it been confirmed that the gunman said 'britain first' yet?

the referendum has basically spilled over far beyond anything to do with europe and has become just another case of the old hate politics, but some weird new strain, where it doesnt even have to be rooted in fact (eg never mind that farages nightmare of the syrian migrant influx doesnt actually have much to do with whether we are in the EU or not). which is a shame as there prob are legitimate reasons for leaving. but you dont really hear it as there is this great din of xenophobia, reactionary panic, and great volcanos of vile feeling.

eg -

At a ward meeting this week my local Labour councillor in Camden, north London, showed us a sign that had been left on a member’s car windscreen. The car had a remain poster on it and was parked round the corner from where I live. This is what the message said, printed in capitals (I’ve left the original spelling): “This is a lave [leave] area. We hate the foriner. Nex time do not park your car with remain sign on. Hi Hitler. White Power” – accompanied by racist symbols. The car’s owner had passed it on to the police.

i keep thinking he shot the wrong MP. the wrong MP from the wrong party. but i kind of dont blame him. he seems like a vulnerable person from the profile on ch4 news yesterday. hes just a product of the general toxic feeling thats been in england the last 15 or so years. it will prob always be there, its just that the visibility and toxicity ebbs and flows.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/15/honest-debate-immigration

Herein lies the most obscene perversion of this turn in the Brexit campaign. The very people who are slashing resources – the Tory right – and diverting what’s left to the wealthy are the ones rallying the poor by blaming migrants for the lack of resources. Not content with urinating on our leg and telling us it’s raining, they have found someone to blame for the weather.

not saying immigration doesnt pose challenges. of course it does. but politicians - as that younge piece says - cant have a sensible discussion about it. the left are too scared of looking racist. the right just use it as a manipulation tool.

 

[Corpsey]

It looks like the killer was a bookworm who favoured Nazi literature; 'Britain First!' seems rather mild compared to what you might have expected him to shout.

Thoughts on this article by John Harris?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum

I feel an instinctive sympathy for the 'remain' argument, but I've been rather dismayed to see friends of mine (who are almost without exception leftist scum) characterising ANYONE who votes for 'leave' as being a racist nazi.

I'm still feeling unsure about how to vote. When you start delving into issues like this it all seems so incredibly complicated and ambiguous that I don't know how you can ever really decide which answer is 'right'.

 

[Corpsey]

Probably stating the obvious, but it seems to me that the rise of right wing feelings over here and in the US (Trump) has been, either cunningly or inadvertently, fostered by the right wing. They've destroyed public services, fucked over the working class, etc. and now people, living in their post-fucked reality are inclined to be angry and take out that anger on targets chosen by the right-wing media/political parties.

It would be interesting (in a horrible way) to see where that anger goes when the right-wing establishment, who promise to set things right (no pun intended) come in and things just get worse and worse.

 

[droid]

Merkel calling on UK politicians to stop 'radicalising'.

The exaggerations and radicalisation of part of the language do not help to foster an atmosphere of respect.

That’s why we all value democratic game rules. And we know how important it is to draw limits, be it in the choice of speech, in the choice of the argument but also in the choice of partly disparaging argument.

Otherwise the radicalisation will become unstoppable.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Sure, but generally more of a US thing.

Nah, I've heard it said about 7/7, Lee Rigby, you name it.

 

[Mr. Tea]

Merkel calling on UK politicians to stop 'radicalising'.

Not sure Merkel is in any position to lecture after her pathetic kowtowing to Sultan Recep The Magnificent.

 

[droid]

Some of these tributes are dreadfully sad. Those poor kids.

 

[HMGovt’s Glorious Return!]

 

[Woebot]

uncanny - i was just about to post that.

severely toxic discussion here:

 

[trza]

no alex jones infowars or prison planet video about false flag operations or the illuminati? very disappointed in you.

 

[Woebot]

http://www.britannica.com/biography/Jean-Monnet

 

[droid]

http://www.realreview.ie/?p=885&utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=not-a-racist

Facts, in this climate, are obviously an irrelevance. A few weeks ago I saw Frank Field, one of the “thoughtful” Labour MPs who’s in favour of leaving the EU, declaring on Question Time that “I don’t think people should be basing their decision on facts” – yes, he actually said that – and nobody even told him it was a colossally stupid statement. But we’re living in a reality where raw prejudice is genuine, where nuance and context are mealy-mouthed, where hysteria is debate, and where bigotry – of course – is legitimate concern.

And none of this has just happened. It’s been fostered by a media that’s seen how hysteria sells papers, by politicians – either those happy to whip it all up, those looking to win votes by pandering to it while secretly despising anyone who falls for it, or those who don’t want to lose votes and hence ignore it – and ultimately, as is always the case, by everyone.

When it comes to the murder of Jo Cox – the appalling, sickening, heart-rending murder – it’s important to say that nobody really knows why it happened as yet. However, in a society where immigration is an enemy, where migrants are a swarm, where the country is at “breaking point,” where anger is an electoral tool, where you only have to care about “your own,” where you’re told to “take control” and “take your country back”… what do you expect to be the outcome of this, if not violence? Shocking… yes, the murder of Jo Cox was that, of course. But if you were surprised, you haven’t been paying attention.

If this seems bleak, then it’s only half the story. There’s another way of doing things in Britain, and it’s the way that Jo Cox, a mother-of-two who formerly worked with Syrian refugees for Oxfam, represented. Her husband’s ludicrously beautiful and inspirational statement does that too. Jo Cox is someone who, before yesterday, many others would have dismissed as a do-gooding idiot, someone out of touch with ordinary people. Pathetic, hollow, joyless men would have thought her foolish for her belief that caring and kindness and empathy are more important than blame, power, and advancement through the propagation of fear. Jo Cox will be remembered, of course. But the least duty for everyone else is to remember her, not just as a victim, but as someone who was right.

 

[sufi]

someone wrote this on fb, i don't agree 100% but it's useful

""I'm probably borderline pro-Eu. But I am massively, completely and utterly Vote Remain".

I've been appalled by the poor representation of arguments made by both camps in this referendum. I've been dismayed by the fear mongering on both sides, and by the shallow depth of most commentary.

Personally, I neither believe Brexit will save us, nor kill us. At two extremes, we are led to believe it will lead to the breakup of the UK, or alternatively magically turn us in to a new economic superpower.

In truth, if we vote Brexit, things will be a bit worse for a while, and then we’ll find our way. And that 'way’ may even be good for us.

But I won't and can't stomach voting for Brexit. And not because I fear the economic consequences. And not because I believe our only global role as a nation is as a lead economy within the EU. The reason I can't and won't vote Brexit is because of what is driving the majority of Brexit voters: a tacit to explicit bigotism that looks at people who are different to us and blames all their perceived troubles on them. As Nazi Germany did to the Jews, Middle England wants its ’country back’ from the people who they claim are responsible for all our ills - immigrants.

And while some high profile Brexiteers are not motivated by this argument, they are happily playing to it. And encouraging it. And as a country, however we vote next week, we will have some painful wounds to stitch up because of this political strategy.

But we can all start the healing process now. This week we can rally round our families, rally round our friends and rally round our communities. We should embrace everyone who lives in this country. Celebrate their individuality, and be grateful for the differences that they bring - the differences that make us the ’United Kingdom’ and ’Great Britain’.

For this country has and always will welcome immigrants and refugees. And we should - actually must - protect ourselves from this groundswell of belief that it is OK to blame others for your misfortune - or the perceived misfortune of your country. It is not. It never will be.

I'm probably borderline pro-Eu.

But I am massively, completely and utterly ’Vote Remain’."

I've done the anti-referendum petition https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/123450/

 

[Mr. Tea]

http://www.realreview.ie/?p=885&utm_source=feedly&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=not-a-racist

There's not much in here to disagree with, and a lot to heartily agree with. At the same time, I think it's disingenuous to pretend that the Left doesn't have to bear some of the blame for the current climate. I mean, just why is that "You can't say anything about immigration" has become such a common refrain, a meme, even? Is it because the great bulk of white British people yearn for the days when pubs had signs in the window saying NO BLACKS NO DOGS NO IRISH, before political correctness came along and spoiled all the fun? Clearly for some that is the case, but I hope I'm not being dewy-eyed when I say I think this probably isn't how most people think.

It's easy to laugh at an unintelligent woman who can't fathom why people might move from a poorer country to a relatively richer one to find work, or understand that Eastern Europeans generally come from Eastern Europe - so yes, some of the time "legitimate concerns" are just thinly-veiled bigotry. But that doesn't mean it's impossible to have legitimate concerns about immigration without being a bigot - of course it is. And yet the kneejerk reaction from the Left as a whole and much of the political centre for a long time has been to label anyone who wants to talk about immigration a racist, which means anything they say can safely be ignored, because who wants to listen to racists?

If the complaint is that facts are becoming irrelevant in a debate dominated by heated emotions, then it's a fact that the UK's population is rising by a million every 30 months, most of it due to immigration. It's a fact that parts of many our our cities are becoming severely segregated, to the point of virtual ghettoisation, and that there's an atmosphere of mutual distrust among different ethnic communities. These are facts. The Left is learning too late that a consequence of yelling "racist!" at anyone wanting to talk about these issues is that the debate ends up being owned, surprisingly enough, by people who really are racist, or at least severely xenophobic. And now look where we are.

 

[droid]

About 30% of the UK admits to being racist. The right, supported by most of the media and enabled by mainstream parties openly uses racist xenophobic nazi tropes to foment hatred against immigrants and minorities to the point where the UK is on the verge of leaving the EU, and a left wing sitting MP has just been murdered by a far right neo-nazi member of an EDL spin off group...

But the problem here is the political correctness of the left.

 

[Mr. Tea]

About 30% of the UK admits to being racist.

I'd be interested to see a source for that. Unless it's just one of those "everyone knows" statistics.

The right, supported by most of the media and enabled by mainstream parties openly uses racist xenophobic nazi tropes to foment hatred against immigrants and minorities to the point where the UK is on the verge of leaving the EU, and a left wing sitting MP has just been murdered by a far right neo-nazi member of an EDL spin off group...

But the problem here is the political correctness of the left.

Yes, and how is that this has come to pass? Why have large numbers of life-long Labour voters switched to UKIP?

I live here, you don't need to lecture me on the repulsiveness of the UKIP campaign or the burgeoning threat from the far Right. My point was that there are social, economic and demographic consequences to an annual population growth rate of 400,000 that have nothing at all to do with race or culture. People need houses to live in, jobs to do and schools for their kids whatever their religion, native language or skin colour. (Of course, there are issues associated with culture as well, but they're certainly secondary to the main issues of population to anyone who isn't tub-thumping for one side or the other.) The Right insists on seeing everything through the lens of culture (or, in the case of the far Right, race per se) and the Left is only too happy to oblige them by insisting that there is no non-racist reason to object to the orthodoxy that all immigration is good and more immigration is better.

And please, for heaven's sake, I did not say "it's all the Left's fault", I said the Left bears *some* of the blame.

 

[sadmanbarty]

I agree that there are a great many people whose concern about immigration stems from perceived economic grievances rather than being racist or xenophobic. However for the most part these grievances are myths, whether they be immigrants fiscal contribution, "steeling jobs" (lump of labour fallacy), etc. which tend to be handy tools for the right to gain populist support and scapegoat for policies such as austerity. Studies show that those most concerned about immigration are those who live in the areas with the smallest immigrant populations.

I'm all for challenging political correctness too.

 

[Mr. Tea]

One of the biggest arguments is the simple demographic one. Housing is under ridiculous levels of pressure in much of England, and these are the very areas that are receiving the great bulk of immigration. And people say "Oh, but the government could be doing X, Y and Z to help ease the pressure on housing", which is true - it could. But it isn't.

Then there's the impact on the environment and the pressure on the little scraps of land here and there that aren't already used for residential, commercial, industrial or infrastructure purposes or under intensive agriculture.

I think the myth of hordes of workshy Slavs sitting around living the life of Reilly on benefits has been exhaustively exploded by now - at least, it hasn't featured in any of the Leave propaganda I've seen. It would certainly be weird for someone to vote Leave based on the idea of EU immigrants coming here and "getting something for nothing" when immigrants from the EU make a net contribution to the economy and it's immigrants from outside the EU who represent a net drain. Although neither effect is huge compared to the UK's GDP.